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Renewable Energy: Using Iceland's green energy

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    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2012
     
    The Yanks are a bit of an outlier, and should be ashamed. There's no reason to think that there won't be a few billion extra souls consuming at European-type rates in 50 years or so though. It's pretty much inevitable IMO. I tend to view any projections for tackling climate change that suggest a reduction in global energy demand as unrealistically optimistic. It would be nice to be able to reduce demand, but all the other factors are working in the other direction for the short and medium-term.

    Having said that, I'm doing as much as I can to get my personal footprint down. Just because the rest of the world is doing it wrong is no reason to join them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2012
     
    Indeed...
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Nothing to do with Iceland, but perhaps relevant to Serets comments. I caught the tail end of Beautiful Minds on BBC4 last night. Prof. Jennifer Clack, the eminent paleontologist . One of her parting comments was We, "humans" have to understand we are only here temporarily, some other life form will replace us. Her best guess was rodents, accompanied with a wry smile.
    We are probably the only species, so far, to see the start of our demise coming and unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Locked into a mindset of superiority and the absolute mastery.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Speak for yourself. I'm as 'umble as can be, me. :wink:
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Now we know who ate all the pies!:bigsmile::wink:
  6.  
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    So, given that we'll all be part of the Big European Energy Society, how long do you think it'll be before our energy prices are brought up to par with our more expensive neighbours on the Continent then?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Or theirs closer to ours?

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Cue ominous music.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    I hope ours go up, it is the only way to reduce demand, it really is.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012
     
    Right, that's one turkey voting for Christmas. Any others? :shocked:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: JoinerRight, that's one turkey voting for Christmas

    I have Cheese Sandwiches on that day.

    If domestic energy was to double in price, from say £1000pa to £2000pa, and it cost £800 to insulate and draftproof, fit some timers etc, even year one would show a saving. Would take a bit of planning for most people (people panic and do things when they have to i.e. when it is cold and the bill, they think is high, comes in).

    I think I could skip the 25th December that way :wink:

    Just to reiterate, my EDF standard E7 has gone up by less that inflation over the last 7 years, or in English, it has got cheaper.
    Have also managed to use about half over the last couple of years, despite there being twice as many people in the house. Most through education my lodger (remember those 30 to 40 minute showers, I can have a bath again now :wink: Freakonomics), some simple, but effective energy management as well as some simple and very effective draft exclusion and insulation. The only thing that really cost money (about £600) was changing all the old blown DG glazing to newer ones, and I get the advantage that I can see out the windows (though one has blown but worked out why, so that will be sorted).

    If we were serious about energy reduction, then we would welcome a tax on it, what we don't want to see is profiteering by the utility companies :devil:
  13.  
    The underlying cost of generating the electricity, accounts for only about 50% of the price that the consumer pays.
    http://www.southern-electric.co.uk/Cost/

    This generation cost is about the same in most EU countries http://www.energy.eu/#Industrial-Elec , so interconnecting with Europe probably wont change the underlying cost very much IMHO.

    The other 50% of the consumer bill is for distribution, taxes, admin, profits, and costs for green stuff like FITs and free insulation. This bit is set more by national policy and markets, so again I dont think that connecting to Europe will change this very much.

    For example the consumer price in Germany is twice what it is in France, depite being connected to the same grid http://www.energy.eu/#Domestic-Elec
  14.  
    The 'promised' benefit of interconnectors are that intermittent renewables in one place get backed-up by somewhere else. So Uk sells wind power to Norway when it is windy, buys back hydro power when its not windy.

    This is how Denmark has achieved such high %s of wind power, it is backed up by coal and nuclear power from Germany and hydro form Norway as the grids are all linked together.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    and how france has achieved such a high level of nuclear.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    To some extent, though they have ~25% non-nukes of which some is load-following, and at least some (expensively I suspect) load-following nuke. IIRC...

    But yes, GB seemed to be propping up France with a lot of coal power earlier this year from my reading of the figures...

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    How much PS does France have? is it a greater or lesser percentage of nuclear generation than us.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: DamonHDTo some extent, though they have ~25% non-nukes of which some is load-following, and at least some (expensively I suspect) load-following nuke. IIRC...


    They also have a higher base load, as the government has actively encouraged more widespread use of electricity than here. It's not as unusual to use electricity for heating and DHW there as it is here.

    ST: PS? Pumped storage? I'm not sure how much they have, it would make sense to use nuclear overnight to pump for storage. The only one I know of for sure is the Rance tidal barrage.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    I stood on that Rance barrage as a kid, mesmerised by the obviously massive power of the water flow, but my dad dismissed it as nothing and wouldn't even buy a postcard of it!

    I don't know if it can be used for demand-callable storage at all.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorCerisy
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    Not so sure that the French government actively pushes electricity - more that there aren't too many options for the bulk of the population in the countryside. We had tanked gas, but it was devilishly expensive and when we renovated our house we stripped out the central heating and replaced it with electric heaters. Most unusual for the French, we asked EDF for an increase in our supply (you pay a higher monthly amount for higher KW rating!!), but they couldn't actually give us what we wanted, so if all the heaters, cookers, etc, in the house and Gite are switched on together we have to keep resetting the mains switch!! The classic french house has a single light bulb (no shade) - often a fluorescent fitting - in their main living room, anything to keep their consumption down!!
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: DamonHD
    I don't know if it can be used for demand-callable storage at all.


    Probably not, tidal barrages normally just pump at high tide to give them a bit more head on the water in the lagoon. It'd be let out with the normal generating pulse on the ebb tide. So pumped storage, but not in the sense of being a useful asset to the grid.

    Posted By: CerisyThe classic french house has a single light bulb (no shade) - often a fluorescent fitting - in their main living room, anything to keep their consumption down!!


    Sure that's not just down to typical Gallic cheapness? :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012
     
    La Rance barrage only generates one way, initially it was meant to work on both tides but had 'efficiency' problems, so the turbines where 'wielded up' and it plods along.

    If the French export to us at night, we can use it to pump, as can other in Europe.

    When it comes to electrical energy, thinking big, very big, is the way to go.

    I was recently down by a river that would be fantastic for a small hydro, about 30-50kW, noticed that there where a couple of houses that had PV on them, less that 200m away. What a missed opportunity.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012 edited
     
    Got to get the EA and Riparians on board to do anything with a river. My dad has a river at the bottom of his garden and has done solar PV + thermal instead. If only he could do hydro or water-source HP.

    Rgds

    Damon

    PS. Just looked at the graphs and over the last 48 hours interconnector flow (INTFR&INTNED) has been towards us except during a couple of hours ~4am--6am presumably to cover early morning Continental demand surge. But the pattern is very variable day-by-day and I don't think we could rely on it to 'bank' in PS.

    PPS. Actually 4--6am is a bit late to fill our PS: in GB we seem to stop drawing down from PS (presumably refilling instead) from *about* midnight to maybe 4am or a bit later, so not much overlap the last 48 hrs.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2012 edited
     
    The EA rules are pretty clear cut, though they do tend to restrict what can be done. There is a nice little 200kW unit near Stithians, luckily the local landowners were on boards for pipe burying and they could use the existing leats left over from the old gunpowder factories. Cost about a £1/Watt (about the same as PV is now) I seem to remember, but churns out 1.5GWh/year.

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