General: Xsorb inter-seasonal heat storage!

151 to 180 of 183

- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012 edited
The "read more" file (on http://www.blamon.co.uk/xsorb.html) is actually just a big e-mail part:

$ cat -v XSORB\ Publication.mht | less
```
MIME-Version: 1.0^M
Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_01CD1898.3EAAF7E0"^M
^M
This document is a Single File Web Page, also known as a Web Archive file.  
If you are seeing this message, your browser or editor doesn't support Web 
Archive files.  Please download a browser that supports Web Archive, such 
as WindowsM-. Internet ExplorerM-..^M
....
```
This is actually quite a good idea and it's a pity it's not more widely and better supported.

Save as a temporary file then open in an e-mail reader. In Thunderbird File | Open Saved Message....

It's 36 MB (and the style, formatting and spelling are horrible) but there are a few little nuggets of interesting information.

JSHarrisIf you know of a way to access the information in the "read more" button on the Blamon Xsorb web site then I, and probably others, would be interested, and I believe it is entirely reasonable to keep that in this thread, as it directly relates to the product (and UK supplier).

Absolutely. Let's just not go off on a tangent about what browsers everybody uses.
- CommentAuthorRobinB
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
I do find the Blamon website off-putting. It'll be a shame if a potentially good product fails due to poor communication. I'd love to see some photos and of the set up in a domestic setting along with the costings that support the "3-5 years payback" claim.
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: RobinB</cite>I do find the Blamon website off-putting. It'll be a shame if a potentially good product fails due to poor communication. I'd love to see some photos and of the set up in a domestic setting along with the costings that support the "3-5 years payback" claim.</blockquote>

Having now read the previously inaccessible bit of their web site I have to agree.

If I were to use the probable heating and DHW demand for my proposed, near passivhaus standard, build, (and they do seem to be aiming this system at exactly this type of build, AFAICS) then the capital cost of the heat store, ducting, fans, solar recharge system would need to be less than Â£1000 to meet a 3 to 5 year ROI, which seems extremely improbable.

If I use the figures for our current house, which is a not particularly efficient (but somewhat thermally improved) 1980 3 bedroom bungalow, then the capital cost of the system would need to be around Â£3000 to Â£5000 to meet the 3 to 5 year ROI. TBH, this doesn't sound that realistic, either.

Without more data there seems little we can do to determine whether this system offers potential. It's a pity that the chap behind Blamon that was posting here seemed to have such an attitude problem, as it would have been useful to find out a bit more about the system.
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Ed Davies</cite>
Let's just not go off on a tangent about what browsers everybody uses.</blockquote>

Not what I was doing, as well you can see from reading the thread. I simply wanted to know if others could access the information on the product from the UK supplier using other browsers, not incur the wrath of the forum police..........
- CommentAuthorChris P Bacon
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
Posted By: RobinBI do find the Blamon website off-putting. It'll be a shame if a potentially good product fails due to poor communication. I'd love to see some photos and of the set up in a domestic setting along with the costings that support the "3-5 years payback" claim.

If you download the "read more" file Robin, you'll find that apart from addressing you by name, you will find photos of the Xsorb material.

Uncannily enough it also gives a 150m2 passive house as the example for calculations but rather than the 1m3 of material that I ventured in my last post it calculates that 8.7m3 of Xsorb are required.

Based on Ecomind's indication of Â£1500 per m3 that would be an investment of Â£13,000 for the Xsorb material alone. Solar panels, heat exchangers, distribution ducting etc. would, it would appear, have to be added to that figure.

All to supply 2,200kWhrs of heat.

There is no mention of what electrical input is required to run the system but from the figures you can calculate that the store will weigh over 9 tonnes by the end of the heating season so you will definitely want to consult with a structural engineer before placing it behind the dwarf walls in a dormer as they have shown.
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Chris P Bacon</cite>
Uncannily enough it also gives a 150m2 passive house as the example for calculations but rather than the 1m3 of material that I ventured in my last post it calculates that 8.7m3 of Xsorb are required.

Based on Ecomind's indication of Â£1500 per m3 that would be an investment of Â£13,000 for the Xsorb material alone. Solar panels, heat exchangers, distribution ducting etc. would, it would appear, have to be added to that figure.

All to supply 2,200kWhrs of heat.

There is no mention of what electrical input is required to run the system but from the figures you can calculate that the store will weigh over 9 tonnes by the end of the heating season so you will definitely want to consult with a structural engineer before placing it behind the dwarf walls in a dormer as they have shown.</blockquote>

Nice bit of sleuthing, I'd not picked up on the large volume and mass required. It seems a bit disingenuous to show the unit as they have done, up in the roof space, if it really needs several tonnes of the stuff to provide even a modest heat store.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
How many logs is 2200 kWhrs
- CommentAuthorRobinB
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
A few websites on this general theme

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328466.100-buildings-and-clothes-could-melt-to-save-energy.html

http://teappcm.com/airconditionphasechangematerial.htm - Indian company

http://www.armstrong.co.uk/content2/commclgeu/files/71921.pdf - more to do with cooling than heating

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042207X07003776.
- CommentAuthorChris P Bacon
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
I think it only fair to point out Robin that Blamon are very forthright in pointing out that the Xsorb material is not phase change material.

Another company which seems to be much further advanced than Xsorb in bringing products to market is a company called ClimateWell http://www.climatewell.com/index.html# (some pages won't load for me using Chrome)

Although up to now their focus has been on solar cooling, I see now looking at their website for the first time in a year or more that they are using their technology to improve boiler efficiency.

I did also notice a solar panel supplier close to me selling PCM tanks for domestic use at about Â£1000 for a 65litre tank which they claim equivalent to a 300 litre hot water tank.

http://www.sfinx.se/?category_id=2&item_id=10060

I believe they are manufactured by a Polish company http://www.sunex-solarenergy.com
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012 edited
I can't get to read the 'read more' bit! I just get a blank page.
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Nick Parsons</cite>I can't get to read the 'read more' bit! I just get a blank page.</blockquote>

That's the problem I had (which led to the browser question), but if you follow Ed's advice and right click, select "save link as" (maybe something else in a browser other than Firefox) and then open the file in an email client it works (although it is a big file to download).
- CommentAuthorChris P Bacon
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
When I clicked on the "read more" link with Google Chrome it downloaded automatically and then clicking on it, it opened as a webpage in IE9.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
I am not reading any more until some hard figures appear.
We have all asked questions now, just need some answer.
- CommentAuthorRobinB
- CommentTimeMay 2nd 2012
Posted By: Chris P BaconI think it only fair to point out Robin that Blamon are very forthright in pointing out that the Xsorb material is not phase change material.

My mistake!
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012 edited
Posted By: RobinB
Posted By: Chris P BaconI think it only fair to point out Robin that Blamon are very forthright in pointing out that the Xsorb material is not phase change material.

My mistake!

Not so fast with the apology! The Xsorb material itself isn't a phase change material but, surely, the Xsorb system uses the phase changes of water between vapour and liquid for a significant part of its operation. Just because they're forthright doesn't mean they're right. And anyway, the â€œgeneral themeâ€ could just be the non-sensibleÂ¹ storage of heat.

Â¹ As in other than materials at elevated temperatures, not as in silly.
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012 edited
I agree with Ed.

I believe there are three ways this material could store heat energy:

1) It could store heat energy just by using the specific heat of the material in a single phase, just as a water-filled thermal store does. The manufacturers suggest this isn't the case, although clearly there must be an element of heat storage from this effect, even if only small.

2) It could store heat energy from a reversible chemical reaction, one that can be charged via an endothermic reaction and discharged via an exothermic reaction. It's clear from the details of the compounds used that this isn't the case, either, as they seem to be fairly non-reactive, chemically.

3) It could store heat energy using the enhanced heat capacity that results from phase change, in this case from water vapour to liquid water, and vice versa when charging. From the description given, and my (limited) understanding of industrial desiccants (which this unit seems to use) I am confident that phase change is the major energy storage mechanism.

In many ways it's similar to other phase change heat energy storage methods we've discussed here before, but with the advantage of using water as the medium, making it potentially safer than some other compounds that have been looked at.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Can't resist.
If it is the phase change of water, there are better and easier ways to achieve the same effect (or is that affect). If it is relying on increased surface area, surely boiling water until it is a gas amounts to the same, and we are pretty good at handling that. My PC is constantly doing it to cool the processor, as do some 'solarmax' type tubes.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Effect.

But storing energy in boiled water needs a lot of volume and very good insulation to do it inter-seasonally. I haven't done the numbers but I suspect the volumetric heat capacity of water vapour, even at greater than 100Â°C, would be uninspiring. We aren't that good at handling water as gas.

The neat thing about using adsorption is that you get to do it all at civilized temperatures and you can store your energy in water vapour floating around in the atmosphere.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: Chris P BaconI think it only fair to point out Robin that Blamon are very forthright in pointing out that the Xsorb material is not phase change material.

Not so fast with the apology! The Xsorb material itself isn't a phase change material but, surely, the Xsorb system uses the phase changes of water between vapour and liquid for a significant part of its operation.

Right, but we all have to agree on terminology in order to communicate effectively, and the situation where water (or other vapour) condenses on the surface of a solid is called adsorption. Where the solid itself melts to a liquid (as with paraffin beads) is called phase change. And there's a third category - absorption - which is where a vapour is absorbed into the body of a solid or liquid. That third class - absorption - is the technology used by Climatewell, rather than the adsorption used by Xsorb. BASF use phase change.

If you google 'absorption chiller' and 'adsorption chiller', you can see that both are long-established technologies in the commercial chiller market. Over the past few years, various firms have been producing smaller, domestic models.
- CommentAuthorwillie.macleod
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012 edited
This whole thing sounds like it has not graduated from a small scale experiment in a lab somewhere. Can Blamon or Xsorb demonstrate a reasonably sized setup anywhere in the world? Why no photos? The wildly misleading diagram of the tiny eaves store in the document does not inspire confidence.

Renewablejohn has already pointed to real life examples of similar setups that work for heat storage and approximate costs of compounds that behave in a similar manner. If I recall this didn't go down too well with EcoMind which I found odd behavior and distinctly unprofessional, what would have been encouraging would be them discussing how they had already tested similar and further developed their product.

If you make claims like "Instant Payback on Installation" on your website then you should be able to back this up. If this has graduated from a small scale lab experiment let's see the photos of the installation and the data to back it up. Preferably with data in a spreadsheet. I would love to see this work in the real world.

Out of interest the "read more" does display ok for me (Chrome downloaded the file and IE 8 decided it would open and display it). Doesn't give much confidence if the company website requires this much work to read.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Where the solid itself melts to a liquid (as with paraffin beads) is called phase change.

That's one example of phase change. The three phases of everyday matter (not plasma, etc) are solid, liquid and gas. Any time a material changes from any one to any other it is a phase change. Water turning to vapour or condensing back again is also a phase change, as is ice subliming directly to vapour. Absorption and adsorption are also examples of phase change, as I understand it (with additional energy involved due to surface-tension like effects).
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Posted By: Ed Davies
Where the solid itself melts to a liquid (as with paraffin beads) is called phase change.

That's one example of phase change. The three phases of everyday matter (not plasma, etc) are solid, liquid and gas. Any time a material changes from any one to any other it is a phase change. Water turning to vapour or condensing back again is also a phase change, as is ice subliming directly to vapour. Absorption and adsorption are also examples of phase change, as I understand it (with additional energy involved due to surface-tension like effects).

Yes, yes, yes. That's why I said "called". We're discussing how the terms are used in describing heat storage/movement technology. All the technologies involve the phase change of some substance or other, but the phrase is applied only as a description for technology that uses one particular type of phase change phenomenon. Silica gel or water are not called a "phase change material"; paraffin is.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
Posted By: Ed DaviesWe aren't that good at handling water as gas.

But PV/T=C
So lower the pressure and it can work in a useful range. How a heat pump does it. There are others ways of increasing the surface area a liquid, but they tend to be energy intensive.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012 edited
Posted By: willie.macleodThis whole thing sounds like it has not graduated from a small scale experiment in a lab somewhere. Can Blamon or Xsorb demonstrate a reasonably sized setup anywhere in the world? Why no photos? The wildly misleading diagram of the tiny eaves store in the document does not inspire confidence.

Renewablejohn has already pointed to real life examples of similar setups that work for heat storage and approximate costs of compounds that behave in a similar manner. If I recall this didn't go down too well with EcoMind which I found odd behavior and distinctly unprofessional, what would have been encouraging would be them discussing how they had already tested similar and further developed their product.

If you make claims like "Instant Payback on Installation" on your website then you should be able to back this up. If this has graduated from a small scale lab experiment let's see the photos of the installation and the data to back it up. Preferably with data in a spreadsheet. I would love to see this work in the real world.

Out of interest the "read more" does display ok for me (Chrome downloaded the file and IE 8 decided it would open and display it). Doesn't give much confidence if the company website requires this much work to read.

I do wonder at times whether the Chinese have the right attitude to "patent" rights. It really annoys me when patents are granted for technology that was invented in the golden age of the industrial revolution. Surely if the original owner is out of time on the original patent then a rehash of the same patent should not be allowed.
- CommentAuthorjules
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012
Renewable Jon
The Xsorb patent is linked higher up the thread. You will see that what it actually claims legal protection for is a process specifically limited to carrying out the adsorption step for at least 3 months before you regenerate the adsorbent by dehydration. I suspect that it is this which distinguishes it from many known processes for using adsorbents in this general way - I am sure that they have much shorter cycle times.

I am not saying that noone ever previously thought of doing it on seasonal timescales for heating, but if they did and they published it then the Patent Office didn't find their publication.

The other point is that the fact that Mr Minkkinen got a patent on it doesn't mean that he's yet developed a process which is commercially viable - that is not a requirement for getting a patent.
- CommentAuthorrenewablejohn
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012
I have several 45 gallon drums full of Activated Alumina originally manufactured in 2002 which we are still using 10 years later. Surely you cannot have a patent on a stable compound such as AA.
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012 edited
Patents are entirely reasonable on novel practical uses of existing materials: it's not what you have, it's what you do with it...

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorjules
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012
RenewableJohn
The patent is not on the material, it is on the process of using it. Specifically, it will only stop other people from doing EXACTLY the following:

A method of recovering latent heat of adsorption from a humid gas comprising the steps of;
i) contacting a humid gas with a desiccant material such that water vapour is adsorbed by the desiccant and the latent heat of adsorption is released as sensible heat;
ii) heat exchanging the desiccant material and or the gas with a media such that at least a portion of the released sensible heat is passed to the media; and
iii) regenerating the desiccant by effecting at least partial dehydration thereof, wherein steps i) and ii) are continued for a period of at least 3 months prior to step iii) being carried out.

It does not cover anyone doing something different. For example, it cannot stop you performing step iii only 1 month after steps i and ii.

Anyway, that's probably enough patent law on this forum.
- CommentAuthordavidfreeborough
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012 edited
Does anyone have any idea on how this process can be controlled?

I'm especially unclear on how winter re-charging can be achieved. Do you need a microprocessor to work out whether the combination of external humidity & solar air panel temperature will cause a net charging or discharging of the store? How do you predict what temperature the solar air panels will get to after the air has been around the loop a few times? What happens if the sun goes in part way through the carefully planned process?

David
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeMay 4th 2012
Looking at the information on the hard to access UK supplier page, it seems that control is electro-mechanical, with sections of the store being opened or closed with slats.

My best guess is that the system needs a way of sensing the "charge" and "discharge" state in each section, and then moving the slats with actuators of some sort. It probably needs to also sense the temperature and humidity level of the incoming and outgoing air, and do some fairly clever control stuff to keep it working optimally.

This is essentially what I was referring to much earlier in this thread when I mentioned that the devil would be in the detail when it came to making a practical heating system at a domestic scale. I'm not convinced that the system is anywhere near that mature, yet, as if it was I think we'd at least have seen a product photo or two.

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General: Xsorb inter-seasonal heat storage!