Green Building Forum - Aerogel

Aerogel

cbatjesmond — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:30:26 +0000

Posted By: cbatjesmond
Well if I don't report back on temperature differences between Kitchen and Sitting Room before the end of January 2009: Fear the worst! :-)
...
Mmmm not sure I'll remember to come back (or even still be around!) in December 2013. I will report back to this thread if anything crops up soon.

Well nothing's cropped up: I'm late but not fatally so: I'm starting to fit the bookcases that are the main furniture in the room. I hope that the SpaceTherm will support the weight of the books!

As to temperature, I'm disappointed with myself for not recording outside and room air temperature as well as floor temperature at all stages of the installation: bare boards, SpaceTherm+ply, SpaceTherm+ply+vinyl. All I can really do now is compare floor temperature in different rooms at the same time. It would have been nice to compare outside/floor/air temperatures across a range of conditions.

Anyway in unheated rooms, the floor with SpaceTherm is 1C warmer than than the kitchen (vinyl on ply on boards) and 1-2C warmer than the dining room (bare boards only). I would have liked a larger difference, but I hope it will make more difference when I get heating back on in the room. So it's not the one-step PassivHaus silver bullet I dream of :-/

I will be laying the rest of the ST I have in the dining room next and will *think* about using it if/when the hallway gets rebuilt.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes
-- CB

Aerogel

spinkox — Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:02:37 +0000

Posted By: cbatjesmondAnyway in unheated rooms, the floor with SpaceTherm is 1C warmer than than the kitchen (vinyl on ply on boards) and 1-2C warmer than the dining room (bare boards only). I would have liked a larger difference, but I hope it will make more difference when I get heating back on in the room.

The thing is - THEY say only 15% of heat loss from a room is through the floor so even if you had 10 layers of Spacetherm it would not make significant difference to the temperature . . .

steve

Aerogel

cbatjesmond — Sun, 08 Feb 2009 22:33:09 +0000

Posted By: spinkoxThe thing is - THEY say only 15% of heat loss from a room is through the floor so even if you had 10 layers of Spacetherm it would not make significant difference to the temperature . . .

But surely that's THEIR floor: MY floor's different! :-) Anyway, it is/was an experiment I was in a position to try.

Having just found the u-value calculator at http://www.vesma.com/tutorial/uvalue01/uvalue01.htm I estimate[*] that the u-value of the floor has changed from 2.69 (25mm floorboards) to 0.90 (vinyl, plywood, SpaceTherm, floorboards). Without the SpaceTherm it would have been about 1.94. So it's an improvement: more would be nice but within my constraints (max. 22mm rise in floor level, not pulling-up/climbing-under floorboards), I'm not sure I could have done better.

A rough calculation assuming 15C temperature difference between inside and outside, ignoring internal walls & ceiling:
oldfloor wall newfloor
area 25m^2 15m^2 25m^2
u-value 2.69 1.40 0.90
W 1009 315 337

So for MY floor in THAT room, I'm still losing more heat through the floor than the wall ... but only 1/3 of what I was.

* The calculator doesn't have SpaceTherm in its list, so I used isocyanurate (resistivity 0.020 W/mK) and multiplied the thickness by 33% to represent SpaceTherm's 0.014-0.013 W/mK.

The calculator doesn't have numbers on bookcases either: anyone know the thermal resistivity of bookcases? 11m^2 of bookcases against the walls has got to count for something :-)

Best wishes
-- CB

Aerogel

spinkox — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:36:03 +0000

I suppose - that well known diagram THEY provide that shows percentage heat loss from a property applies to a whole house rather than just one room. It would only apply perfectly to your situation if you had a one room house. Or taking it to the other extreme - if your room was surrounded by heated rooms where there was no temperature difference between them - then you would lose more through the floor! - I think. . .

steve

Aerogel

JackyR — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:37:47 +0000

Using "typical house" percentages is hopeless. This may be "15% in a house with no loft insulation". As soon as you sort out the loft and drafts, the percentage loss through the floor will shoot up - while remaining exactly the same.

Aerogel

mellie_man — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:23:35 +0100

I have been tryig to use the U value calculator
What humidity do you use!
I was trying to see U value for 10mm TO10kingspan onto a 15" stone/brick solid wall. I f I put anyway near approaching Regs it indicated condensation rick with the default humidities.

?

Aerogel

cbatjesmond — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:56:56 +0100

Posted By: mellie_manWhat humidity do you use!

I left RH at the defaults, but changed inside/outside temperatures to be more realistic worst-case for me: 18/0C

Since the calculator is done in JavaScript, you could try a different browser ... FireFox instead of IE ?

Aerogel

Victorianeco — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 23:42:00 +0100

This stuff any good for an attic conversion? Or cheaper alternatives?

Aerogel

Shevek — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:13:07 +0100

Posted By: VictorianecoThis stuff any good for an attic conversion? Or cheaper alternatives?

Too expensive. I'd recommend sprayed/blown insulations such as Icynene or Warmcel. Both are breathable and both also deal well with airtightness. We're spending about Â£2000 to insulate our loft conversion with Icynene to a thickness of 270 mm.

Aerogel

Victorianeco — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 17:51:04 +0100

Â£2000 to insulate a loft?? Jeez lol

Aerogel

Shevek — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 19:42:54 +0100

You'd probably add another zero to achieve same u-value in Aerogel.

Aerogel

cbatjesmond — Tue, 29 Jul 2014 22:56:21 +0100

Posted By: ShevekYou'd probably add another zero to achieve same u-value in Aerogel.

Aye, the details are dimming, but I see, to remember paying just over Â£1000 in 2008 for 50m^2 of 9mm SpaceTherm blanket (18 x 2.4m x 1.2m x 9mm). I could have got the same result for about Â£100 then (Â£200-300? now) of PUR or mineral wool -- if I'd had 200mm to play with instead of 20mm.

5 year update: The SpaceTherm just sits there supporting 9' high bookcases. The room is warmer than comparable rooms without -- but it's S-facing and better heated so hard to compare. I've still to lay the remaining 25m^2 of SpaceTherm. I'm now intending to pull up enough floorboards in the dining room to get under the whole of the ground floor and insulate with 200mm of from underneath to get the theoretical u-value down to ~0.15 before relaying the dining room floor. I also intend (after 5 years reading here) to take a lot more care with draught exclusion!

Aerogel

haplessDiyer — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 16:02:40 +0000

I'm planning to use aerogel for insulating some walls were space is an issue (around windows etc so not large areas).
Does anyone have any tips on the best form to use. Proctor seem to sell it bonded to various products
http://www.proctorgroup.com/products/thermal-insulation/spacetherm
It sounds like they don't recommend fitting with adhesive or screwing. Will nailing direct to masonry work? We have some curved sections as well - would it be possible to plaster direct onto the aerogel somehow?

There's also a cork panel product
http://www.aerogel.uk.com/cork-spaceloft.html

Does anyone have some experiencen with how best to fix it etc?
As I understand it, 4 layers would be required (40mm) to achieve a u value of 0.29 meeting building regs requirment for walls in refurbishment.

Aerogel

SteamyTea — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 16:34:34 +0000

It comes as a 'blanket'. The 'active' ingredient is actually a powder.
So if it gets wet it just negates the thermal properties and if you use at adhesive, then the thermal properties tend to go towards that of the adhesive when dry and the blanket.
So mechanical fixing it is.
They do a version that has plasterboard. Cut it neatly (can be a tricky as the blanket snags) and fix carefully and it should not need more than a bit of filling.

Aerogel

Saint — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 09:40:38 +0000

Posted By: haplessDiyerI'm planning to use aerogel for insulating some walls were space is an issue (around windows etc so not large areas).
Does anyone have any tips on the best form to use. Proctor seem to sell it bonded to various products
http://www.proctorgroup.com/products/thermal-insulation/spacetherm" rel="nofollow" >http://www.proctorgroup.com/products/thermal-insulation/spacetherm
It sounds like they don't recommend fitting with adhesive or screwing. Will nailing direct to masonry work? We have some curved sections as well - would it be possible to plaster direct onto the aerogel somehow?

There's also a cork panel product
http://www.aerogel.uk.com/cork-spaceloft.html" rel="nofollow" >http://www.aerogel.uk.com/cork-spaceloft.html

Does anyone have some experiencen with how best to fix it etc?
As I understand it, 4 layers would be required (40mm) to achieve a u value of 0.29 meeting building regs requirment for walls in refurbishment.

Different suppliers offer different solutions.
It can be bought on the roll, cut off a roll, or as a thermal laminate where it has been bonded to a rigid building board.
Alternatively it can be bought in smaller sheets where the Spaceloft has been cut from the roll and had different facings applied.
These can be self adhesive foil, aluminised foil or even a reinforcing mesh that makes it simple to plaster/render over directly. These sheets are fairly flexible. It can also be supplied bonded up into different thicknesses in multiples of 10mm although as the laminated thickness increases this makes a more rigid product.
It is almost impossible to "wet" aerogel spaceloft as is contains within it's matrix a hydrophobe that actively dispels water. One of its major industrial uses is in sub-sea pipe insulation so its vital that it doesn't take up moisture

Aerogel

Nick Parsons — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 13:00:41 +0000

Bit of a hi-jack, but while you are about, Saint, can I do a query re fixing?

I have to try to improve the thermal performance next to a newly-installed all-singing, all-dancing triple-glazed bay window. At the moment the only thing between outside and in is a 20mm wooden cover fillet. I can't just whack in some ordinary insulation, since this area forms part of the (wooden, folding) shutter housing. There *is*, however, just about room for 10mm aerogel and 3mm ply, and, the cover fillet being 20mm thick, there ought to be just enough 'bite' for a screw without popping through to the outside.

I am aware of the tendency of aerogel to 'pick up' on drill-bits, but also mindful of the fact that is we try to use nails, we might just pop the cover fillet off. Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks,

Nick

Aerogel

Saint — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 09:21:59 +0000

Posted By: Nick ParsonsBit of a hi-jack, but while you are about, Saint, can I do a query re fixing?

I have to try to improve the thermal performance next to a newly-installed all-singing, all-dancing triple-glazed bay window. At the moment the only thing between outside and in is a 20mm wooden cover fillet. I can't just whack in some ordinary insulation, since this area forms part of the (wooden, folding) shutter housing. There *is*, however, just about room for 10mm aerogel and 3mm ply, and, the cover fillet being 20mm thick, there ought to be just enough 'bite' for a screw without popping through to the outside.

I am aware of the tendency of aerogel to 'pick up' on drill-bits, but also mindful of the fact that is we try to use nails, we might just pop the cover fillet off. Any thoughts or advice?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick, as you're fixing a narrow but long strip I'd be tempted to cut and fix the strip of 10mm Spaceloft in position first.
You'll find that carpet tile adhesive spray works well.
Then overlay this with your 3mm ply or perhaps a 3mm or 4mm (if there's an additional 1mm to spare) magnesium board that you've predrilled with the fixing holes.
The reason that the aerogel sometimes grabs the drill bit is because the polyester reinforcing in the insulation melts at high temperature so once the drill bit gets hot it sticks to the bit.
The secret is to drill the holes, which in your case would be small, quickly avoiding the bit overheating too much. Use a new bit, set the drill on hammer if necessary and go at it with some gusto pulling the bit out as soon as possible.
Then plug and screw

Aerogel

Nick Parsons — Sat, 08 Nov 2014 10:47:40 +0000

Many thanks Saint. I won't need to plug, as I am fixing through into the wooden cover fillet. I think I might adapt very slightly what you suggest in that I may pre-drill the ply, carpet-glue the aerogel to it, drill holes in the aerogel against a scrap piece of wood, then finally spray on the glue, offer it all up and screw through to the timber fillet.

Many thanks for your help.

Nick

Aerogel

haplessDiyer — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 09:57:21 +0000

Posted By: Saint
or even a reinforcing mesh that makes it simple to plaster/render over directly. These sheets are fairly flexible. It can also be supplied bonded up into different thicknesses in multiples of 10mm although as the laminated thickness increases this makes a more rigid product.

Who supplies it in with a plastering mesh Saint? I haven't been able to find that product.
Thanks

Aerogel

haplessDiyer — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 18:55:35 +0000

Thanks Saint, much appreciated.
Here's a link in case anyone else is interested
http://www.gti-limited.com/insulation.php?cat=194

Aerogel

oldbuilders — Fri, 01 Apr 2016 13:51:36 +0100

We have used aerogel on a few projects now here in Ireland
http://www.oldbuilders.com/insulation centre/Aerogel/1_aerogel_01.htm
Seems to be very effective, its expensive but very helpful where thickness and breathability is an issue in restoration projects in roofs and stone walls.