Skywalker, how do you get people to spend £1500 or more without cultural change, no carrot and no stick?

You don't! (at least not directly)

The government spends it out of it's nuclear power station fund thus needing at least three less power stations (by my fag packet calculation).

I'm past wanting to muck about waiting for people to do things or trusting deveolpers - there is not time.

What I set out is dead simplistic I know but even if it cost three times as much (in order to be properly monitored and quality controlled by say local building controll and set up costs, allow for difficult cases etc.etc.) what is wrong with just getting on with it. It would be a major programme and affect every houshold (other than the irrelevant number of people that live in real passiv houses and maybe a few thousand other' dwellings) upoin which you could then run an intensive cultural change programme.

S.

Yes

No middlemen, no grants, just do it. Direct payment to local authorities, mandatory powers to execute programme. Whilst you have to pay someone to install the stuff, the materials costs are known and a well trained chimpanzee can install it (no sucking of teeth & 100% mark ups).

S.

On the tax issue linked to SAP- there should be a link but in the guise of incentives. British gas have been running a pliot where council tax payers get a rebate for a couple of years if they make the sensible improvements recommended to them. I can see this could cause problems if there was no penalty side - otherwise everyone's council tax rate would have to go up to make up the shortfall!? The other link to investigate is rather than a specific tax rate for each SAP - set a target to achieve. So say you have a Victorian terrace with a SAP of around 35, the target should be 50 which includes loft insulation, a new boiler, TRV's and double glazing where allowed. Any shortfall should be taxable - ie. you pay to get the measure installed, or you pay tax for nothing. As other measures get cheaper you can riase the bar, on what is expected as a minimum. So by 2020, that 10 year old gas boiler will need replacing with a heat pump, and you should have had your floors insualted from below. This is necessary - I've been talking to lots of people lately - one thing I keep hearing is "I don't believe in climate change". And "I won't do anything until the government tell me I have to". So there. I doesn't matter whether or not they believe it. They'll have to put in insulation a modern efficient boiler and TRV's.

Stamp duty reductions on energy measures are a great idea. I'd planned to use my savings to put in a heatpump in teh new house and then realised that my £277k house is liable for stamp at 3% not 1%. So £8310, not £2770. Be lucky if I get a new gas boiler now! the good thing about stamp reduction is that the government aren't collecting the money and (inefficiently) redistributing it. You choose how you will do it.

I should add - becusae of my green interests I just trained to be a domestic energy assessor. Absolutely no interest in HIPs, I needed a tool to measure a homes efficiency - without having to resort to drilling holes, pressure testing and thermal scans. RDSAP (Reduced data SAP) as it's called, isn't perfect, but it's a good start and can be completed in less than an hour (on site). Expect V2 to include the floor type, and possibly direct entry of U values [as long as someone can agree what to do with multi foil :-(] . At the moment the software makes assumptions based on age, so you get an ear bashing by the owner as the EPC report says "Assumed Suspended Timber", when you as the assessor know full well it was concrete! :-( And someone who has an Eco house with over specified insualtion, only gets a U value for the building regs in force at the date the house was built :-(. However this is less than 1% of homes.

I'm working with a group of other assessors to make the EPC more suitable to people who aren't moving - so you can use it as a tool to help people understand their bills and emissions. Maybe eventually - it could become available nationally. One thing I want to illustrate to people is the concept of savings. Assuming you have it, is £1000 better left in your savings account, or invested in insulation - the rates of return on energy efficiency measures can be into double figures. The only problem is - you can't get the money back so this works best with older families who have no intention of moving (and sufficent spare cash to have left over for a rainy day).

Finally - long term plan - if you told people about it, (awareness), told them they have to do it (taxation), you then probably need to do it for them. Look up the word ESCo. This will be big business. OFGEM recently took away the 28 day rule. So you can now enter into a long term contract for energy services - which isn't just for energy. It can also include insulation, renewables, advice, monitoring etc etc. Removing the 28 day rule means you can't switch supplier, but it could provide them an incentive to "give" you free measures.

Simon

In reponse to Peter A...

Try this for all the technical help you could need...

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/housingbuildings/publications/

However - you post raises the issue of awareness. EST is starting to become my first port of call if I want to know something. And I then follow links and cross references from there. The typical householder isn't going to want to draft seal under skirting boards, and take the floor boards up to fill with rockwool. Not yet. However these jobs are best suited to DIY as they will cost too much if done professionally to have a payback. But what will make them even think to look to the EST for this advice?

Now I'm off to lunch before it looks like I'm hogging the thread :-)

I almost don't know where to start with that response!

One thing I would say is manage your aspirations carefully with regard to large funding bids (did it for years - considerable ups and downs on the way). A 'promise' in funding terms is a letter saying we agree to give you £XX anything else is a possibility (strong or weak but a possibility) in particular if you have significant 'ifs'.

One of the problems with funding schemes is the process involved in distributing and aquiring the funds. The distributor has to administer, pubicise and report on the scheme and therefor has costs to cover (staff & 'on' costs) these are generally taken from the same fund which the applicants are bidding for resources from. The applicant has to fund the aquisition process (staff & building costs) and recover their end of the admin during the scheme and cover the management cost of implementation; if not from the 'fund', usually made difficult, from so called 'match' funding (other sources) used to lever the bigger funds. Most usually with large schemes, like the one you are proposing, it is delivered by third parties (even if within the same organisation) who then have to bid in to the original applicant for thier part of the project wiht the cost load put on the funding stream.

What I am trying to say is you cut out all this interim stuff (which takes time and money), have a very simple scheme (loft insulation in all homes to as near as practical to XXXmm), funds supplied to local authorities through the normal channels (minimal extra management cost) delivered by the local authority using their normal mechanisms (delivery staff employed directly with minimal 'on' costs due to the scale of most local authorities) using the normal tender procedures, using extra building inspectors to monitor the scheme on the same basis as other improvements. Then the only agenda is to get the insulation installed, the only 'winners' are the people in the houses and the government. The power generators lose around 10% of their income.

Easy ;-)

S.

skywalker Thanks for the advice. To be honest - I don't totally trust them, biggest worry is that they'll pinch all the ideas and do it in house. So we've signed them up with non disclousre agreements before letting them see the detail. However they've got more money to spend on solicitors than we have!

Ah but would they doggedly persue the airtight house through thick and thin, against allcomers and still post sometimes dry & witty comments? (like our Tony).

S.

Simon, it's not me that needs help from the EST, you summed up the measure of their success, it's only the likes of you and I that look at their website. It needs to be a high profile campaign that hits the DIY market to make them aware of the simple energy efficent measures that can be taken each time a room is redecorated, perhaps HMG should invest in some tv air time?

From a new boy on this site I just wonder if anyone has seen the Energy Efficiency Reports which come as part of HIP's nowadays? The last couple I saw had me in hysterics. They only play lipservice to energy efficiency. Apart from the dumbed down 'white goods energy consumption ABC style rating' it has recommendations such as change lightbulbs to low energy versions. All well and good but the last one I saw went on to say that you would get your money back in 13 years - wow. Most people move every 5 years or so. That is hardly an endorsement or an incentive. People are inherently selfish (not everyone but please excuse the cynic in me) and with such a long pay back time will not see the incentive to invest in energy saving where someone else will benefit. No one even asks to see these reports let alone takes any notice of them.
If you are going to play sticks & carrots you need to do it through the tax system. If you went to buy a house and the council tax was going to cost a lot less because it was heavily insulated you might well prefer that property over a similar one being penalized due to poor insulation. Of course this would necessitate a bit of joined up writing between assessors, councils and government and a realistic assessment of very different property types and listed buildings, etc. Above all, owners need cash/tax incentives to carry out work. Perhaps then you might get some of Skywalkers simple quick results taking place. You need a stick AND a carrot. Tax incentives for doing it. Tax penalties for not doing it.

I like crazy foam and mastic Cheap, simple and easy to retrofit if you are not into a major rebuild.

Jeff, have you seen a real EPC - or just read about them in the press. An EPC doesn't have payback times on them. Measures are broken down into "Low Cost" (Under £500) "Higher Cost" (£500-1000) and "Further" for things like PV and Solar H/W. The Fridge rating is show alongside the Actual SAP score, and potential SAP score - which you'd get if you implemented th Low Cost and Higher cost measures (but not the Further).

So in my house Current SAP was 58 and could be bought upto 70 by
Lower cost:
increasing loft insulation from 100mm to 250 saving £24 per year (SAP upto 59)
Replace all non low energy bulbs saving £26 per year (SAP upto 61)
Higher Cost:
Upgrade existing gas boiler to condensing boiler saving £133 per year (SAP up to 70).

I'd call that informative not useless.

What's even more useful - is knowing that installing a PV system (£8000 by my rough calcs) would save me only £34 per year. So I won't be buying one of those then! IT's still useful info - as it says - stick to the sensible stuff.

Finally I've included a sample of the text describing the measures just to show that theres some substance to what is contained...

Upgrade loft insulation to 250mm
Loft Insulation laid in the loft space or between roof rafters to a depth of at least 250 mm will significantly
reduce heat loss through the roof; this will improve the levels of comfort, reduce energy use and lower fuel
bills. Insulation should not be placed below any cold water storage tank, any such tank should also be
insulated on its sides and top, and there should be boarding on battens over the insulation to provide safe
access between the loft hatch and the cold water tank. The insulation can be installed by professional
contractors but also by a capable DIY enthusiast. Loose granules may be used instead of insulation quilt;
this form of loft insulation can be blown into place and can be useful where access is difficult. The loft space
must have adequate ventilation to prevent dampness; seek advice about this if unsure.

Upgrade existing gas boiler to condensing boiler
A condensing boiler is capable of much higher efficiencies than other types of boiler, meaning it will burn
less fuel to heat this property. This improvement is most appropriate when the existing central heating boiler
needs repair or replacement, but there may be exceptional circumstances making this impractical.
Condensing boilers need a drain for the condensate which limits their location; remember this when
considering remodelling the room containing the existing boiler even if the latter is to be retained for the time
being (for example a kitchen makeover). Building Regulations apply to this work, so your local authority
building control department should be informed, unless the installer is registered with a competent persons
scheme{1}, and can therefore self-certify the work for Building Regulation compliance. Ask a qualified
heating engineer to explain the options.

The next step is to make sure the new owner gets their hands on the report. Something that isn't happening at present. However the key stakeholders involved are keen to help make this happen.

Draft proofing is way and away the most cost effective thing to do.

Insulation 250mm deep should go between and over the ceiling joists.

skywalker - have you considered taking the airtightness training - I found a company offering it for £145 + VAT- http://www.chilternfire.co.uk/training/thermalserv_training/air_leakage_testing_explained.html. Haven't been able to get a price on hiring the equipment yet but purchasing is a b it pricey - like 4 figures pricey! But with hiring the idea is you can keep retesting and see how far you still have to go without paying £100 everytime you want it testing. Combine some canned smoke to see where the escape points are and you can do regular tests for little extra outlay. Not sure if it would qualify you to offer a service, but at least you'd be able to do DIY!

Draught proofing of windows, doors and loft trap are the first step, commonly not done, for the majority.

Step two is air sealing arround and under frames, round service entries from lofts, floors and walls.

Step three is air leakage sealing under floors, behind walls etc to get to a reasonable level of non air leekyness.

Most haven't done step one yet and just because you have replacement windows does non necessarily mean that you are there yet.