Green Building Forum - Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? Fri, 06 Mar 2026 20:27:05 +0000 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149794#Comment_149794 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149794#Comment_149794 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:09:35 +0100 Joiner
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2006/ete.pdf]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149804#Comment_149804 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149804#Comment_149804 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:51:55 +0100 dickster Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149809#Comment_149809 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149809#Comment_149809 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:03:14 +0100 SteamyTea Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149814#Comment_149814 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149814#Comment_149814 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:14:53 +0100 Joiner Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149836#Comment_149836 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149836#Comment_149836 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:14:50 +0100 SteamyTea Burn it again
Bury it

Burning hydrogen in air produces more than just water NO and NOX are produced too.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149837#Comment_149837 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149837#Comment_149837 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:51:00 +0100 dimengineer Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149838#Comment_149838 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149838#Comment_149838 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:01:38 +0100 Joiner ]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149841#Comment_149841 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149841#Comment_149841 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:45:13 +0100 Brianwilson
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/jun/28/boat-engineering-hydrogen-power]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149844#Comment_149844 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149844#Comment_149844 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:48:26 +0100 Seret
Metal hydride storage maybe? I know there's some folks deploying it for real in the field, although it's far from mature.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149852#Comment_149852 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149852#Comment_149852 Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:12:07 +0100 Joiner
Ah well. To save anyone else telling us how explosive and leaky the stuff is...

"Hydrogen storage facility: For the hydrogen storage, the technology of metal hydride would be very attractive
for the HARI system, but pressurized storage of gaseous hydrogen was the only commercially viable option at that time. The hydrogen store consists of 48 mild steel cylinders, each with a volumetric capacity of 0.475Nm³
and a wall thickness of 38mm for a weight of about one ton. These cylinders would provide a total of 576Nm³ of
stored hydrogen at 25bar. But since the cylinders can withstand a pressure of 137bar, a 4kW hydraulic
compressor (able to pump up to 11Nm3/h at a feed pressure of 25bar with a ratio of 1:8) is used to raise the
hydrogen pressure, providing 2856Nm³ of hydrogen at full capacity. This gives an equivalent storage capacity of
about 3800kWh when the hydrogen is converted back to electricity, providing up to 3 weeks of cover without any renewable energy input."

"Avoiding leakage was one of the biggest challenges of running a hydrogen system. Besides helium, hydrogen has the smallest molecular size of any element, which means that hydrogen molecules can escape through the tiniest openings, where all other gases couldn’t pass. All leaks have been eliminated at West Beacon Farm, which represents an outstanding performance."

There you go. :wink:]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149861#Comment_149861 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149861#Comment_149861 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:05:10 +0100 SteamyTea Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149867#Comment_149867 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149867#Comment_149867 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:19:36 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Haha, nice one!

I always thought this idea had legs, avoids the low energy density problem with hydrogen, and some of the explody problems too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_economy]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149869#Comment_149869 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149869#Comment_149869 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:37:24 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: WillInAberdeenI always thought this idea had legs
I like that idea too, just too costly at the moment.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149872#Comment_149872 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149872#Comment_149872 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:04:04 +0100 Joiner
:wink: But it doesn't have to be extracted from miles below a desert or sea bed, transported half way round the world and then processed in a massive chemical complex (with its own inherent explosive dangers http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-13635757 ) and shipped miles in tankers to depots where it is stored before local distribution to whoever wants it. You can process the stuff in a building behind one of your barns, or at the top of your orchard if you're that lucky.

And even a row of terraced houses in a quiet little Cornish backwater could beneift from the technology if such a CHP plant was installed. :winkkiss:]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149876#Comment_149876 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149876#Comment_149876 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:14:42 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: WillInAberdeenI always thought this idea had legs

I like that idea too, just too costly at the moment.

Not if your in Germany or Sweden who are pushing ahead with the technology with direct methane injection into there national gas grid systems.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149878#Comment_149878 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149878#Comment_149878 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:36:45 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: JoinerYou can process the stuff in a building behind one of your barns, or at the top of your orchard if you're that lucky.
That's the dream.
Takes a lot of energy to make it though, may be better to just use that energy directly.
Some things do not scale well, energy production is one of them.

Find me an RE system that can supply 4.5 MWh.y^-1 from a land area of 60 m^2 and still have a usable house on it, and costs less than £500/year and I may consider it.
This is the problem with RE, it is a very diffused energy source, why using less is the important bit.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149880#Comment_149880 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149880#Comment_149880 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:55:47 +0100 Joiner
A challenge...

How many inventions (or technologies) have come out of mistakes or unintended consequences when working on what was, at the time, the main subject of study, regardless of whether that main subject of study went on to become established?

I'm ruling out post-it notes and penicillin at the start.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149883#Comment_149883 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149883#Comment_149883 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:35:08 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: JoinerProblem is, if you take that kind of thinking to its logical conclusion (as an economist would) there is no point working to develop the technology further.
If the physics does not stack up though, you are best ditching the idea. There is nothing new in using hydrogen as a fuel, or in storing it.. One has to question why it is not everywhere if it was so obvious and easy to do (compared to oil).
It is only when the alternative is more expensive that a substitute rises to the top.
Take Nuclear Power, we had a 20-30 year push and got about 25% pf pur electrical power from it at one stage, since then there has been a steady decline. There are all sorts of reasons for this, but I suspect that the steady price of coal (in absolute terms) over the last 25 years and the reduction in gas prices (in relative terms) over the last 40 has played the biggest part.
Not saying it is proper to do this, but it is the way it is.

The best way to reduce fossil fuel use is to use less. How you do that is another matter, but I suspect that it is not technology driven.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149904#Comment_149904 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149904#Comment_149904 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:05:41 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: JoinerYou can process the stuff in a building behind one of your barns, or at the top of your orchard if you're that lucky.

That's the dream.
Takes a lot of energy to make it though, may be better to just use that energy directly.
Some things do not scale well, energy production is one of them.

Find me an RE system that can supply 4.5 MWh.y^-1 from a land area of 60 m^2 and still have a usable house on it, and costs less than £500/year and I may consider it.
This is the problem with RE, it is a very diffused energy source, why using less is the important bit.

I have thought of applying my industrial technology to the domestic market but for £500 per year its just not worth it.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149905#Comment_149905 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149905#Comment_149905 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:10:02 +0100 SteamyTea Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149912#Comment_149912 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149912#Comment_149912 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:42:10 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTeaAnd that is the problem, my domestic energy bill is just that, way too cheap. What would yours cost and fit on my plot?

I would need more details to give a proper estimate.

Would the output of say a Otag Lion be suitable ie 2kw electric 8kw heat if so it gives me something to work with if not what sort of figures are you looking at bearing in mind minimum and peak requirements. Also what roof slope space available split north south east and west.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149915#Comment_149915 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149915#Comment_149915 Fri, 29 Jun 2012 17:06:10 +0100 renewablejohn Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149967#Comment_149967 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149967#Comment_149967 Sat, 30 Jun 2012 07:49:36 +0100 SteamyTea Energy use is 4.5 MWh a year, but hoping to get it down to at least 4 MWh.
Charts below shows 3 days in Jan, pretty typical, I am happy with the temperatures in the house (the logger is in the kitchen so rest of house a bit cooler). 22nd was a miserable day by the looks of it.
Do a price as an academic exercise.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149976#Comment_149976 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149976#Comment_149976 Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:07:33 +0100 renewablejohn Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149989#Comment_149989 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=149989#Comment_149989 Sat, 30 Jun 2012 10:02:16 +0100 SteamyTea At the moment would be just over 4 kW.
If heating diesel is £0.90 /lt, has about 11 kWh of energy in it and can can run a generator at 25% efficiency, that would work out at £0.33/kWh, or about 3 times I pay at moment.
As my load is about 280W(e), and my heating/water load is 330W(h), that means I need a 2.1 kW diesel engine on the generator. About 50 kWh•day-1 (48 kWh•day^1 Challenge, funny how that number crops up :cool:). That would use 4.4 lt•day^1 or about £4 (for the winter). Water heating uses 4.25 kWh•day^-1, so the non heating season load is 280W(e) and 180W(h), at the same efficiencies that works out at 1.65 kW motor, 3..6 lt•day^1 or £3.24
Say my heating season is 120 days, that is £1280•year^1 or 2.5 times what I currently pay. Add to that buying and installing the kit, £5000, and assume the generator lasts 10 years (£200•year^1) and the rest lasts 30 years (£100•year^1), that is now about £1600•year^1, or 3.2 times what I pay.
Now I can say with certainty that my current storage heaters and DHW will last 25 years (as they have), but let us say that they have to be replaced today, would cost about £2000 I estimate (£80•year^1). So that makes my real energy costs £580•year^1. 2.8 times cheaper.
So diesel powered CHP is a non starter, not got a clue what bottled gas costs per kWh, but I am sure someone else can work it out.
Chart below is combined energy use.]]> Hydrogen "storage" for self-sufficiency via renewables? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=150782#Comment_150782 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9255&Focus=150782#Comment_150782 Sat, 07 Jul 2012 05:04:48 +0100 renewablejohn
Just going through some rough calculations the minimum spend to be self sufficient would be in the region of 10k for a thermal oil system producing peak 4kw output and upto 40kw thermal. Breakdown of costs £4K for thermal TEG's, £2k for insulated thermal oil storage tank, £4k for 20 m2 of thermal solar. Obviously the larger the quantity of thermal solar panels and the bigger the thermal store the more robust will be the system in covering cloudy days. Total backup could be provided by an additional £3k spent on a Dunsley Yorkshire boiler but I know your not a fan of biomass.]]>