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Heating and cooling: Smoke Nuisance – is wood wood?

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    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015 edited
     
    We'll said CWatters. My solicitor said we have not given him permission to put monitoring equipment in our property so that's not going to happen. However, the judge said he has got to review the whole situation so I guess he needs to view the videos that I have taken of the smoke coming down. I agree that I have to be careful not to get drawn in to arguments, that's down to the 2 experts when they both meet, think that's next month. I am just going to answer the questions to his letter and give him the equation so he can convert the readings if he's not happy with them being in imperial measurement.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    Can the equation for the particulate conversion be entered into a spreadsheet?
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    Here's a pic of the equation, didn't want to risk writing it!!
      image.jpg
  4.  
    Hi
    I would record the meeting (and tell him you are doing so)

    If the Judge says he has to review the situation then OK, but he does not need to be at your property to view the videos.

    Ask your solicitor if you need to let him into your house or should inspection of the outside be sufficient

    He works for the opposition so assume he will try to trip you up or say something to negate or damage your case.

    You do not have to answer his questions, you can defer any questions to your expert or your solicitor i.e.tell him that 'that is a question you should ask my solicitor/expert'.
    You are not an expert in this matter neither technical nor legal, that is why you have one of each - they should answer any questions at this stage. Especially do not answer any questions about your health.

    If he has sent questions in a letter then answer the questions in a letter - through your solicitor - and do not get drawn into discussions about ANYTHING.

    Find out if imperial measurements are acceptable to the court, if they are then he should put up with them or convert them himself, If they are not acceptable in court then you will have to get them converted, probably officially to avoid any challenges

    In your position I would be polite and say nothing - and as gg said above 'don't even make him a cup of tea!'
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    If the videos have been submitted as evidence can't he view them at his office?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015 edited
     
    If the values of x are in column A then try..

    =(2*POWER(10,-7)*POWER(A1,2)) + (0.0049*A1) + 11.7

    Use at your own risk!
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015 edited
     
    Just got around to replying to this guys letter, he is saying he is unable to accept in court both CO and particulate readings. He says it is most unusual for a simple basic domestic combustion issue to be provided with CO and particulate matter readings. Readings of this nature are normally only undertaken in industrial complexes by skilled operators. Particulate Matter. I cannot accept on the following grounds: obsolete and non standard units of measurement are used.

    What about an option of taking on board his proffesional opinion and have the CO and particulate data removed from my experts report. Just rely on the points that they are creating more smoke than would be expected for a DEFRA exempted stove and the smoke is not dispersing in a normal way I.e the chimney is not working properly which equals none compliant. I still have my witnesses supporting us and my multitude of videos to rely on. Perhaps this could be seen as a chance to simplify things.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    I'm confused!. This bloke is your neighbours' expert witness? In that case you don't do anything. Your expert presents his opinion in court, their expert presents his opinion and the judge makes a decision. You don't change any of your evidence on the say so of the oppositions witness.

    The CO and particulate data would seem to be important to your case, just because the neighbours expert is objecting doesn't invalidate them and surely it's up to the judge to decide between the opinions of the experts. Simplification isn't necessary.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    Is it not possible for you to find someone/expert that could interpret your figures and put them in context, I.e. Relate them to clean air verses unhealthy air?, I would have thought a judge would listen to an "opinion" of an expert in this field.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    Posted By: Mikeee5I cannot accept on the following grounds: obsolete and non standard units of measurement are used.
    no doubt your expert witness will be able to counter their experts opinion?
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    Posted By: Mikeee5Particulate Matter. I cannot accept on the following grounds: obsolete and non standard units of measurement are used.

    I am neither lawyer nor expert in this area, but if that's the level of their expert's argument then the words "scraping the bottom of the barrel" come to mind...
  12.  
    Posted By: Mikeee5I cannot accept on the following grounds: obsolete and non standard units of measurement are used.

    Of course he does not want to accept the measurements, they are damaging to his client's defence.
    Posted By: skyewrightI am neither lawyer nor expert in this area, but if that's the level of their expert's argument then the words "scraping the bottom of the barrel" come to mind...

    +1

    Let your expert and solicitor answer this.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2015
     
    He says it is most unusual for a simple basic domestic combustion issue to be provided with CO and particulate matter readings.


    That's not a good reason for discounting evidence. It's an indication of how serious the problem is for you.

    Readings of this nature are normally only undertaken in industrial complexes by skilled operators.


    I'm sure a bit of research would turn up projects where school children are doing particulate monitoring. Perhaps contact projects like..

    http://www.airsensa.org/education.php

    Particulate Matter. I cannot accept on the following grounds: obsolete and non standard units of measurement are used.


    Get your expert to reply to that. Have your guy convert the data if he thinks it necessary.
  14.  
    Yes it is unusual, but the air quality conditions are also unusual, as is the intransigence of the defendant, therefore, you have been forced into more extreme measures.

    This is just lawyer games - don't play, pass to lawyer.

    Re visit. Suggest you are not there when he comes around, just have a friend show him what he wants to see. Anything he asks for is via lawyer both ways.

    Also why not invite him around the next time you have smoke in the house - then, assuming he doesn't come, you can use that in court too.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2015
     
    Posted By: GotanewlifeRe visit. Suggest you are not there when he comes around, just have a friend show him what he wants to see. Anything he asks for is via lawyer both ways.


    Brilliant plan !

    gg
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2015
     
    Thanks for the kick up the backside chaps. I`m back in the fight.

    I think this guys motto must be "If you can`t dazzle them with science baffle them with bovine excretion" !!!

    He concludes his letter to me by saying "Full use should be made on the requirements of HSE Publication EH 40". I have just had a look at this on the net and it is for workplace exposure limits to lots of different substances. COSHH Regs 2002 as amended. Oh my days !!!
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2015 edited
     
    Sounds to me like he might be trying to apply levels that are acceptable in a working environment to a domestic setting. You spend more time at home than you do at work so shouldn't exposure limits be lower at home than at work?

    I found this page which might be of interest.

    http://www.sustainableaggregates.com/sourcesofaggregates/landbased/dust/dust_acceptablelevels.htm

    It's mainly talking about dust but it appears to be an attempt to collate data on what levels of particulates the public, and perhaps government, consider to be a nuisance.

    The public response to what constitutes "nuisance" (Table 9) is reported by several authors


    and gives references.

    Would be nice to find something similar for smoke.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2015
     
    Just out of interest do you have data on the background level of particulates (eg when they aren't burning stuff). Otherwise they may ask you to prove the high levels come from their fire rather than local traffic.
  19.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Mikeee5</cite>

    He concludes his letter to me by saying "Full use should be made on the requirements of HSE Publication EH 40". I have just had a look at this on the net and it is for workplace exposure limits to lots of different substances.
    </blockquote>
    Yup - its for work place contaminants and as far as I could see has nothing to do with the products of combustion from a domestic stove. If he wants to show its relevance then let him show it, otherwise let your solicitor deal with this reference.

    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: gyrogear</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: Gotanewlife</cite>

    Re visit. Suggest you are not there when he comes around, just have a friend show him what he wants to see. Anything he asks for is via lawyer both ways.
    </blockquote>

    Brilliant plan !
    gg</blockquote>

    +1
    Ask your solicitor if you can do this, it could save you a lot of trouble!
    • CommentAuthorphilnixon
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: CWattersIf the values of x are in column A then try..

    =(2*POWER(10,-7)*POWER(A1,2)) + (0.0049*A1) + 11.7

    Use at your own risk!


    Probably a bit late, but I just a little typo in the above - missing the first "x" in the equation.

    NB: The power function in Excel can also be written using ^, which is my preferred method for reading!

    So you then have:

    =(2*A1*10^-7)*(A1^2) + (0.0049*A1) + 11.7
    or
    =(2*A1*POWER(10,-7)*POWER(A1,2)) + (0.0049*A1) + 11.7
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2015 edited
     
    Probably a bit late, but I just a little typo in the above - missing the first "x" in the equation.


    Is that an x or a multiplication ?

    I assumed it was meant to be 2 times 10^-7

    Otherwise they would have written x^3 ?
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2015 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: CWatters</cite>Just out of interest do you have data on the background level of particulates (eg when they aren't burning stuff). Otherwise they may ask you to prove the high levels come from their fire rather than local traffic.</blockquote>

    Yes I did recordings when the fire was lit and unlit. I came across a video last night in preparation for the visit where I had videoed the particulate monitor and panned across to the unlit chimney. I have many videos where I have filmed the chimney smoking and the particulate monitor in our house doing back flips. My neighbours who have been having their smoke alarms set off are also coming around to explain what has been happening in their house and witness what the expert in square root of absolutely nothing has to say.

    I have compiled a good selection of videos of the smoke coming down and I have agreed with both solicitors to show him the videos. I think it is important that he hears our side of the story as to what has been happening. Will let you know how we go on.

    Wish me luck, I`m going in......


    Mikeee5
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2015 edited
     
    By the way, I put one of my biggest particulate readings of 2500 into A1 in an excel spreadsheet. I put the equation into B1 and it converted to 3148.95. Does anyone thing that looks about right or does it look unrealistic? I`m not planning on mentioning this at the meeting. I will get it done professionally if the court will not except the imperial measurements.

    Cheers

    Mikeee5

    =(2*A1*10^-7)*(A1^2) + (0.0049*A1) + 11.7
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2015
     
    Far to many significant figures, need rounding and with error bars and units

    Eg. 3150 plus or minus 50 ppm.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2015 edited
     
    The meeting went well folks, he turned out to be a nice guy. Felt a bit dooped at first, they asked us to go around to watch the fire being lit. My neighbour put wood on the fire and lit it. Me and my wife watched the fire starting for about 5 minutes and their expert disappeared outside. I said I think we should be out there watching what's happening with the smoke. We came home and was met with fumes around the rear of the property. I called the expert over the fence and asked to come around to witness the fumes. He came around and the fumes were still there. My neighbour had done a relitively good start up certainly nowhere near the usual plume. The smoke lasted for around 7 minute and was quite light. We invited the expert in to our home to view a selection of videos along with my neighbour who is also being affected by the smoke! The expert gave us his opinion on the particulate readings and CO which we referred him to out expert. He viewed the videos of the smoke coming down and he was quite ofay with negative and positive pressures and influences of wind patterns. He said that to get away from the wind effect the chimney needs to go ........ Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup !!!!!!!!!



    Mikey5 and out.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2015
     
    1230 posts before something sensible happens, what is the world coming to?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2015
     
    Posted By: tony1230 posts before something sensible happens, what is the world coming to?

    You've been doing a lot of whispering!
  28.  
    Posted By: Mikeee5The expert gave us his opinion on the particulate readings and CO which we referred him to out expert

    Some typos here but guessing what you mean I still want to hear what his opinion was!
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2015
     
    Yea. We just referred him to our expert regarding the issue of the CO. Let's hope his written report reflects on what he said during the meeting, could be a positive breakthrough.
  30.  
    So the expert said "that to get away from the wind effect the chimney needs to go up"......Now I wonder where have we heard that before??

    Did you have a witness (independent) at the experts visit, so that if his report differs from what he said at the time you can challenge it.

    If the experts report reflects the comments he made then it sounds good for you....something positive at last!

    If the other side offer an out of court settlement following the experts visit make sure it is in writing, water tight and pays your costs including the equipment you had to purchase and everything else plus something for your inconvenience.

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