Green Building Forum - Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future Fri, 07 Aug 2026 19:47:35 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158486#Comment_158486 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158486#Comment_158486 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:22:34 +0100 jamesingram http://news.sky.com/story/991949/liquid-air-could-be-the-fuel-of-the-future

"British scientists developing the technology say normal air can be used to store energy by cooling it to -190C, turning it into a liquid.

When the liquid air is later warmed, it rapidly expands into a gas, creating high pressure that can drive the piston engine of a car, or generate electricity in a turbine.

Dr Tim Fox, of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, which has organised the summit of experts, said: "We're coming out of the cave blinking on this one and we're only just getting an inkling of how great the energy storage benefits of liquid air could be."

One company, Highview Power Storage, has built a pilot plant next to a power station in Slough to prove the technology works.

At times of low demand for electricity, the plant uses the excess energy from the power station to suck air through refrigerator-style compressors turning it into a liquid, which it then stores in an insulated tank.

When consumer demand spikes, the energy is returned to the national grid. The tank, which stores 60 tons of liquid air, can power 6,000 homes for one hour."

Seems they're doing it just round the corner from me , sounds interesting form of energy storage, anyone heard more?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19785689
"IMechE says this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being released into the atmosphere.The heat can be used to boost the thermal expansion of the liquid air."
"Highview believes that, produced at scale, their kits could be up to 70% efficient, and IMechE agrees this figure is realistic."]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158487#Comment_158487 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158487#Comment_158487 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:38:42 +0100 SteamyTea ]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158489#Comment_158489 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158489#Comment_158489 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:52:27 +0100 jamesingram http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20928014.800-power-of-cool-liquid-air-to-store-clean-energy.html

Posted By: SteamyTea Good place to build in on Slough Industrial Estate as it may go wrong

Not into the post-modernist industrial decay look then ? I've alway found having such things as the view out of my bedroom window makes my trips to the local woods and countryside all the more splendid :bigsmile:]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158491#Comment_158491 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158491#Comment_158491 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 21:25:57 +0100 SteamyTea Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158493#Comment_158493 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158493#Comment_158493 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:01:28 +0100 tony
I could see it being very usefull in conjunction with tidal power as it overcomes the flat spots while the tide turns. Though I would rather see this overcome with the 100% efficient demand management route.

Interesting as a fuel possibly the best option we have for hgv transport. Can't see it for cars, my electric car holds it charge for a month with only a few percent losses, a liquid air car would loose it by then and there must be icing up problems to be sorted too.]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158495#Comment_158495 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158495#Comment_158495 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:16:38 +0100 Gavin_A Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158497#Comment_158497 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158497#Comment_158497 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:36:29 +0100 Seret Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158498#Comment_158498 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158498#Comment_158498 Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:39:51 +0100 Seret Posted By: tony
I could see it being very usefull in conjunction with tidal power as it overcomes the flat spots while the tide turns.

That's a really easy problem to solve, as tidal power is metronomically predictable. If you really wanted to smooth the output you could just spread your tidal power stations along the coast so that they peak at different times.]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158501#Comment_158501 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158501#Comment_158501 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 00:24:10 +0100 tony Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158503#Comment_158503 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158503#Comment_158503 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 00:53:59 +0100 Seret http://www.tidetimes.org.uk/ and you'll see that some places have high tide at the same as others have low. And if you're generating on both tides then you don't need to be out by much.

This paper: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/04/isope_04.pdf has some nice graphs showing projected power outputs from various sites superimposed. You can see it's not hard to design a system that provides impressively stable output for a renewable source.

Anyway, variable output is pretty trivial if it's predictable and we can predict the tides hundreds of years in advance.]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158505#Comment_158505 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158505#Comment_158505 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 02:15:10 +0100 wookey Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158507#Comment_158507 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158507#Comment_158507 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 03:06:21 +0100 Seret Posted By: wookeyHow many kWh is '6000 homes for an hour'? Bloody useless unit of energy-storage.

What do you mean? 6 kilohome hours, perfectly sensible SI unit.]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158508#Comment_158508 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158508#Comment_158508 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 06:16:47 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: Seretas tidal power is metronomically predictableWindspeed/direction and air pressure can make a big differencee
Posted By: Seretjust spread your tidal power stations along the coast so that they peak at different times.
Not enough suitable sites

Posted By: tonyHow long would the coast need to be
I got 300 miles here to play with! Tide times and heights (the thing you really want) are affected by the depth of water and the topology of the seabed.

Posted By: wookeyBloody useless unit of energy-storage.
3.3MWh or 5MWh or 6.6MWh Take your pick:
http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Media/FactSheets/Documents1/domestic%20energy%20consump%20fig%20FS.pdf]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158519#Comment_158519 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158519#Comment_158519 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:31:22 +0100 djh Posted By: tonyHow long would the coast need to be? We onl have just over an hour difference in England from east to west, not enough to smooth out power production.
I think you need to look a tiny bit further than the English Channel. Try looking around the coast of Britain. Or even just the North Sea http://www.mumm.ac.be/EN/Models/Operational/Tides/animation.php

Posted By: Gavin_Ait's surely not an actual fuel, but another potential storage mechanism, same as hydrogen, or batteries.

Yes, it depends whether you mean [chemical] fuel as in something that burns or [transport] fuel as in something that powers a vehicle. Hydrogen is a chemical fuel, BTW. Batteries contain chemicals that undergo reactions to produce power, so they meet the definition of a chemical fuels, and indeed a flow battery makes the chemicals look very much like fuel. But the notion of a physical fuel is a bit more of a stretch. Compressed air that is released into the atmosphere after use would be more 'fuel-like' than a rotating flywheel.]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158529#Comment_158529 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158529#Comment_158529 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:18:43 +0100 qeipl Posted By: tonyHow long would the coast need to be? We onl have just over an hour difference in England from east to west, not enough to smooth out power production.

HW today at:
Loch Harport (west side of Skye) 11:01
Portree (east side of Skye) 11:50 (only 8NM apart, as the seagull flies).
Inverness 17:07
Dover 15:40]]> Liquid Air Could Be The Fuel Of The Future https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158532#Comment_158532 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9666&Focus=158532#Comment_158532 Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:51:42 +0100 Seret Posted By: SteamyTeaWindspeed/direction and air pressure can make a big differencee


That's variation in magnitude not in timing, and is still predictable several days in advance with good accuracy.

I had originally whispered my reply to Tony as I didn't want to drag the thread off topic, but it's seems like it's a bit late for that!]]>