Green Building Forum - Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

peterpanel22 — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:35:23 +0000

Hello I have been contacted by a company called SKS Thermodynamics and are calling their system revolutionary but is it revolutionary like the salesmen said??

Is it making solar thermal look like yesterday's technology? as this works all year round therefore you do not rely on secondary source.

Their website looks professional but not sure to go ahead with them http://www.sks-thermo.co.uk" >. Does anyone have any experience with this company?? I found a few positive reviews of them.

Also they said this system qualifies for the RHI but it does not come into action until summer 2012, but I do not know how much I would get.

The price they quoted was just above Â£6000 for this for my needs, how long will it take to get an ROI?

Sorry for multiple questions, me and my partner are in this dilema and I could not find any information to this as this is a new thing, and having free hot water heating really would help us out.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

ted — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:17:55 +0000

Thermodynamic solar panels are basically a heat pump. Not necessarily MCS certified as such - which they would need to be to get RHI. It's definitely not certain. RHI may start next year.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

YouGen-Cathy — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:54:14 +0000

According to the Energy Saving Trust you can get RHPP for thermodynamic panels. However, it's not likely to be eligible for the RHI in the near future. This is a quote from DECC's press office:

Â· DECC is aware of this technology. These products work like a heat pump, using a solar panel to act the evaporator. Though the panel has solar keymark certification, these products are not a solar thermal technology and so are not eligible for the solar thermal tariff.

Â· We are gathering information on performance and on the establishment of standards for these products. At present there is no established methodology to test and demonstrate their performance and so they are not currently supported under the RHI.

Â· DECC is in discussions with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme who are working on developing standards. There are no immediate plans to bring in support under the RHI until demonstrable performance standards are established.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Ed Davies — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:50:46 +0000

http://www.sks-thermo.co.uk/

Some of the entries in their comparison chart towards the bottom of the page seem a little startling to me.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Simon Still — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:22:26 +0000

Posted By: tedThermodynamic solar panels are basically a heat pump. Not necessarily MCS certified as such - which they would need to be to get RHI. It's definitely not certain. RHI may start next year.

Look interesting though. They *seem* to have a lot of the advantages of AirSource (don't require sun, flexibility in fitting location) without most of the disadvantages (noise/complexity/moving parts exposed to elements). Does anyone have any more info on them?

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

peterpanel22 — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:24:49 +0000

Hello all,

after doing more digging about solar thermodynamics and reading other forum posts and reviews about SKS thermo I have decided to go ahead

Me and my partner were confident about the system after reading how Ireland have been using this for over 4 years now and the guys at SKS thermo were actually quite knowledgeable after the first call. I have got a great deal, or so I hope and I cant wait.

I will keep you posted on how good it is, or how it's now once installed this week.

Please let me know if you go through SKS Thermo to share refer a friend of Â£100. Thanks

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Triassic — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 22:57:51 +0000

It would apper there are two discussions going on covering the same ground. I'd suggest you shop around before you jump in and buy as i've see up to Â£1500 difference in price for the same system.

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9763&page=1#Item_0

Might be worth reading this - "We briefly looked at this technology and decided that there was no evidence to support claims being made for it. Got this letter from MCS about half an hour ago: "17th October 2012".......

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/photovoltaic-solar-panels-green-energy-forum/65944-bubble-bursts-those-installing-solar-thermodynamics.html

Some test results - http://institute.ntb.ch/fileadmin/In...in_01-2012.pdf page 18, Energie Est, lda, Eco 250esm

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Beau — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 07:50:03 +0000

In the pop up add on their site it talks of "free constant hot water, whatever the weather day and night". How can a heat pump be free to run?

The table at the bottom said ASHP can't heat water 100% of the time, I don't believe this is true.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

RobinB — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:31:52 +0000

Posted By: BeauThe table at the bottom said ASHP can,t heat water 100% of the time, I don,t believe this is true.

Can and does, except I suppose when very cold ours stops and defreezes itself for a minute every now and then before ploughing on.

Posted By: Beau"free constant hot water, whatever the weather day and night". How can a heat pump be free to run?

Can't see how either, unless with big PV + big battery for the dark times.

A pity that the technology may or may not be OK but the marketing materials I've seen seem a bit iffy to me.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

HollyBush — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:25:30 +0000

Posted By: peterpanel22The price they quoted was just above Â£6000 for this for my needs

Peter - these look very interesting and are close to where I live - can you expand on what they might be supplying, and what need they are fulfilling please?
I'm very close to needing a new heating system and would like to use something like this, it's the economics that are tricky here - Â£6k seems a lot, when compared to Solar Thermal panels, a new (gas) boiler and solar cylinder, which would leave me around a quarter to half to run the system for many years or provide most of the EWI I'm planning.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Chris P Bacon — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:53:34 +0000

@peterpanel22 How are you taking confidence from the fact that these type of panels have been in use in Ireland for 4 years?

I have been following this in Ireland over that period and despite seeing lots of people state that they have had them installed and are very happy with them I have only ever seen one individual post figures on the running cost.

In that instance they stated that for a family of 4 the total electrical consumption was 80.8kWhr for last July.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80366705&postcount=14

I don't have a problem with the technology as long as you accept that it's a heat pump and not a solar panel (any possible issue of these being mis-sold as far as grants are concerned is another matter as far as I am concerned)

I have been looking for years for some independent test results for these panels and have never been able to find any.

Triassic's link above to a Swiss test is the closest I have seen so far and that gives a COP of 3.3 according to EN255-3

http://www.ntb.ch/fileadmin/Institute/IES/pdf/WPZ_Bulletin_01-2012.pdf (fixed link)

As I understand it EN255-3 is the standard for DHW heaters and is the COP to raise water from 15Â°C to 52Â°C with an ambient temp. of 7Â°C rather than to raise the water temp to 35Â°C which is how the COP of most ASHPs is stated so I think the COP of these so called thermodynamic solar panels possibly compare pretty well with other ASHPs.

But I'll say it again, I would just love if someone published independent tests by a credible organisation to show what the yearly running costs of this type of system really are.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

SteamyTea — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:23:04 +0000

Seems that these will not get RHI:
http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/gemserv_suspends_solar_thermodynamic_products_mcs_registration

Probably for the best as basing a business on a government subsidy or looking at payback even is not a good plan.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Jeff B — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:47:55 +0000

I'm not sure that a new panel system like this (whatever the technology behind it) would be of interest to most people if it means you have to buy the whole kit including a new DHW cylinder. I would want to use my perfectly good cylinder and their heating system would need to be compatible with it!

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Chris P Bacon — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:09:13 +0000

I'm interested in it as I only need about 2.6kW for my new build and this could be a solution as an alternative to a 5kW Ecodan ASHP.

A system with two panels should satisfy that demand but I don't see figures for the COP and output at lower temperatures around -10Â°C?

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Triassic — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:36:44 +0000

Without the subsidy I'd expect the price to fall considerably, otherwise why would people buy such an expensively priced bit of kit.

Iooking at the individual parts that make up a system I'd pay no more than Â£2k tops.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

GaryB — Tue, 06 Nov 2012 22:39:42 +0000

I have no issues with the technology or concept; I agree with the comments above that it is a heat pump not a solar system.

Probably is more reliable than a conventional ASHP as the condenser has no fan (looks like no moving parts)

When the sun is shining the COP will improve as the top surface temperature increases: conversely, on a cold bright night it will lose radiant heat and be less efficient - have a look at the temperature of a solar thermal panel on a clear night, it will be less than the air temperature.

Best not to use at night (unless cloudy or wet) for the most efficient operation.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

SteamyTea — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 07:13:34 +0000

Posted By: GaryBBest not to use at night (unless cloudy or wet) for the most efficient operation.

That's and interesting way to get the COP up, rather than have it temperature controlled like a standard ST system. Do they come with timers?

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Beau — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 07:20:06 +0000

Sorry slightly off track but sort of related.

I considered fitting some large surface solar collectors to our GSHP. The idea was to have a separate circuit that was used during the summer for the hot water during the summer and use the ground loop in the winter. I never got around to this but the chap who commissioned our GSHP had fitted a surface mounted solar collector to his ground loop which charged up the temperature of the ground over the summer months to around 20C.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

davidfreeborough — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:29:05 +0000

Beau

If you ever have a weekend to spare trying reading through this guy's blog:

http://chargingtheearth.blogspot.co.uk/

David

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Triassic — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:20:44 +0000

Thought this may be of some passing intrest - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNBc4AydVds

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

GaryB — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:50:44 +0000

Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: GaryBBest not to use at night (unless cloudy or wet) for the most efficient operation.
That's and interesting way to get the COP up, rather than have it temperature controlled like a standard ST system. Do they come with timers?

Not sure, but if they don't they can be fed via a timeclock / programmer. If used with E7 or E10 a completely different economic scenario applies.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

SilverSpray — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 10:20:13 +0000

The 21-09-2012 reply from Jewsons (" the only national builders' merchant with exclusive rights to the new and innovative Thermodynamic Atmospheric Energy Panels") to this blog post of theirs, http://blog.jewson.co.uk/2225/were-all-going-thermodynamic
"You can find further information at http://www.greenworks.co.uk/. Also, although independent test data is available from Europe and has Solar key mark so is eligible for Renewable heat incentive in the UK, the product is currently gaining independent testing through the BRE in the UK and the data will be available shortly."

suggests they believe Thermodynamic Panels will get the RHI

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Gavin_A — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 18:16:19 +0000

I'd think MCS would know better on that score than Jewsons, and given that they've suspended the certification of the products until further notice I can't see how anyone is going to register a system for RHI without the MCS cert.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

ted — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:49:00 +0000

DECC held a RHI webchat yesterday and, as part of that, confirmed that thermodynamic panels will not be eligible for RHI until they are MCS accredited.

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/rhi_webchat/rhi_webchat.aspx

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

seascape — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:59:36 +0000

Mmmm.... greenworks doesn't seem to have been updated since March 2012 and is still showing the old FIT rates, with no updated figures. So crikey! I can get 38p with their pv panels - amazing.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Triassic — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:31:41 +0000

I called into my local Jewsons this morning to ask about the panels and what information they had.

the guy on the front desk was a waste of time, did'nt know they did solar panels of any description, so I explained what it was I wanted and the guy in the office chipped to say they had been discontinued. Suggested they neededto update the web site and was told where to get off!!! Great customer service!

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Brunei Bob — Sun, 19 May 2013 16:04:54 +0100

Peterpanel,

Can you let us know how you got on with the thermodynamic panels if you did go ahead with the installation? I was at the build show and was interested in them.
Many thanks.
Cheers!!

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Sprocket — Sun, 19 May 2013 23:21:56 +0100

The tech looks like it may be genuinely interesting for some situations.
But the way it has been picked up and and used is not encouraging :-(
That same installer PP was talking about...

"How does Magic Thermodynamic Box Work?":-

http://www.sks-renewables.co.uk/#!magic-box/cwgm

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

SteamyTea — Mon, 20 May 2013 04:43:27 +0100

I see that installer sells infrared heaters and voltage optimisers, I shall say no more.

Should I buy thermodynamic solar panels now without RHI?

Basil — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:35:59 +0000

Has anybody actually installed Thermodynamic Panels in the SW of UK and are they happy with performance? Much said about Northern Ireland installations, but no specific experiences or recommendations from actual users - how did panels cope last winter? Any problems? Disappointed?