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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthordovecote
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    Looking for thoughts/comments on how best to organise bathroom heating - am looking to have a heated towel rail but want to keep it modest in size which means it wont be sufficient to warm the bathroom (2m x 3m).

    So would an approach be to have underfloor electric as well as a electric towel rail - and avoid bathroom being on the main central hearting circuit? Or is underfloor electric too slow?

    As an aside - any brand/make recommendations for general purpose steel radiators for use in bedrooms etc - i.e. not 'designer' but still look respectable in living areas.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012 edited
     
    If you've wet central heating , I'd steer away from elctric UFH and electric only towel rad, To pricey to run
    Stick in a small convertor rad to make up for the small towel rad ( or just fit a bigger towel rad , more space to hang your towels) You could put it in a airing cupboard if you had one in the bathroom.
    If your floors tiled and you're worried about cold toes, just run the return pipe from the towel rad up and down the joists a bit, works fine when the CH on.
    If you really want a heated towel rad for when the CH if off, then fit an electric element to the wet towel rad. run it off a spur with a timer, placed outside the B. room
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012 edited
     
    Overhead radiant heating - one of those shiny flying saucers - works v well in a bathroom. With wet evaporation-cooled bodies, the last thing you want is air currents, and air temp as the principal means of keeping wet bodies comfortable has to be v high i.e. stiflingly hot when not wet/naked. Radiant is even more optimum in a bathroom that anywhere else. You can be comfortable in direct line of sight from a hi-temp radiator, even when air temp is quite low, or when it's at normal room temp. Towel rads are mainly convectors - not gd. Hi-output convector rads, whether wet or electric, are even worse. Worst of all are those fixed bathroom fan heaters.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    Posted By: fostertomOverhead radiant heating - one of those shiny flying saucers - works v well in a bathroom.

    Yup, we had an overhead infra-red lamp in the bathroom when I was a kid and I loved it.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    Posted By: jamesingramfit a bigger towel rad , more space to hang your towels

    Every heated towel rail I look at isn't fit for purpose. They mount too close to the wall, so it's a struggle to put your towels over them. They're in a single vertical plane, so a single bath sheet fills the radiator. And they cost loadsamoney.

    I've always thought that a fairly low and wide conventional radiator with a normal unheated multi-rail towel rail over the top of it makes a lot more sense. Not as shiny or elegant though.

    Or have I missed some sensible heated towel rail?
    • CommentAuthorcar-mark
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    Sorry to have spent so long reading and not contributing.

    How to heat the bathroom needs more explanation as we all respond with our own feelings and prejudices. In our case my wife is a in need of a wheel chair to get about and gain access to the "en suite". So getting the floor dry is important, yes we have a wet room but use a shower curtain to keep some of the water at bay. I used under floor electric and a towel rail to sort out heating. We are on economy 7 and tend to use the timers to make maximum use of that source of "economical" energy. There has been no mold and it is always pleasant to visit the facilities, the pure cost is not the only reasons for choices. Our house uses E7 storage heaters for heating, but even with gas I would be tempted to look at electrical underfloor heating in a wet room because the gas heating may be off all through the summer

    yours Mark
  1.  
    Posted By: jamesingramIf you really want a heated towel rad for when the CH if off, then fit an electric element to the wet towel rad. run it off a spur with a timer, placed outside the B. room


    This is what I did in our current place, only with it a backbox mounted delay timer operated by a 'Press' switch. Not regs compliant as it's in the bathroom (but is on a RCD circuit). An outdoor switch in the bathroom would be the safer, if less elegant, option.

    It's kind of nice but I'd not do it again. It takes a surprisingly long time to dry towels and in summer that's all waste heat. Given the price-per-washing-load figures that were being quoted on here the other day, washing the towels more often is probably a much greener option.

    Unless your bathroom is huge, towelrails big enough for a few towels, belt out a surprising amount of heat. especially as they're not usually run on TRV's so are on most of the time
  2.  
    Posted By: fostertomOverhead radiant heating - one of those shiny flying saucers - works v well in a bathroom.


    My gran had one of these in a London towerblock. Always seemed kind of antiquated but I remember it being comfortable. In our first flat we had an unheated toilet and I fitted a bayonet cap heat bulb in the ceiling fitting. Can't remember whether we took it out in Summer or not. Had forgotten about it completely until just now.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    It seems to me that an advantage of radiant heating would be that, apart from heating wet bodies, it would also heat the walls and fittings more than the air thereby reducing condensation.
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012 edited
     
    Just completed a review of bathroom heating for a Client building a rather nice lakeside dwelling.

    Looked at electric towel rails, wet towel rails plus electric element for summer, underfloor heating plus wet towel rail. Electric was considered as 6.75 kWp of PV is being provided (there is a 3-phase supply available for an 8-person passenger lift). Main heating is via ASHP units.

    The economics worked out in favour of wet underfloor plus wet towel rail. The towel rails are on a separate wet circuit with its own pump. The use of 'free' solar electricity in the summer for towel rail heating didn't stack up compared to the wet system fed via ASHP, with a COP of >4.0, which means 75% can be exported and generate income.

    For towel radiators, I use curved ones which are more practical. I have 2 curved chrome rails in storage which I bought in B&Q for £69.00 each on offer.

    With respect to cheap & stylish radiators, Myson do one with side panels and top grilles which are a fraction dearer than their standard range. For great looks and performance I favour Jaga Strada, but these are definitely in the mid-price designer bracket.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeNov 5th 2012
     
    Interesting to see all the support for radiant heating.

    I put a spare lighting circuit in our bathroom so, with this encouragement, I am now thinking of retrofitting up to a kW of radiant heating.
    • CommentAuthordovecote
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    GaryB - thanks for pointing me at Myson and Jaga - how do Myson compare with stock panel radiators from the likes of Srewfix/Wickes etc (Acova I think)?
  3.  
    Posted By: GaryB
    The economics worked out in favour of wet underfloor plus wet towel rail. The towel rails are on a separate wet circuit with its own pump. The use of 'free' solar electricity in the summer for towel rail heating didn't stack up compared to the wet system fed via ASHP, with a COP of >4.0, which means 75% can be exported and generate income.


    Interesting. How are the towel rails controlled - is that heating circuit on a timer? Also, what temp do they run at?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviesan advantage of radiant heating would be that ... it would also heat the walls and fittings more than the air
    True, but another way is to just switch it (1.5kW?) on when you're in the bathroom and wet, with the room otherwise unheated, or just background air temp, or maybe even 'normal' air temp for house as a whole.

    Whatever the low-to-'normal' air temp is, it's not really enough when you're wet. So we
    either shiver even when it's 'normal' air temp (esp with ex fan creating air movement),
    or else we run the bathroom at extra-high air temp, for wet comfort,
    or we don't rely on air temp but instead create enough hi-temp radiation to feel comfortable.
    Actually feels bracing, healthy (like the glow after a cold shower!) instead of fuggy.
  4.  
    You do need some between you and the fitting though. I'm 6' 5" and I seem to remember having the slight feeling of the top of my head being toasted when standing up to wee when I was running the heat bulb in the light fitting....
  5.  
    Radiant heat in the bathroom is the addditional heat source I am coming around to as well. We have a towel rail connected to c.h. which doesn't give us a nice comfy feel in the bathroom, so have been looking around for a better solution.
    Can anyone suggest a good model ?
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    ..and when my son was born the doctor checking him over set fire to his own hair on the overhead infrareds. Exhausted, half asleep I jerked awake when one of the nurses shouted "you're on fire" and just managed to lift my head to see the nurses hitting the doctor over the head. Baby was fine.
  6.  
    UFH is nice to stand on in bare feet, and dries up the water splashed on floor quick ly

    My mistake was to lay out the UFH just too far from the edge of the room, so cant quite reach the sink while still standing on the warm bit.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012 edited
     
    i think one of the biggest problem 'green' energy efficient building has to deal with, is the occupants, over the last 30 years, are getting far to soft , demanding ever more creature comfort , with higher indoor temperatures , dressing unsuitably for the climate. Have none of you lot heard of adaptive thermal comfort. (eg. man up )
    Time for more hairy shirt purchasing I believe :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeNov 6th 2012
     
    Posted By: Simon Still
    Posted By: GaryB
    The economics worked out in favour of wet underfloor plus wet towel rail. The towel rails are on a separate wet circuit with its own pump. The use of 'free' solar electricity in the summer for towel rail heating didn't stack up compared to the wet system fed via ASHP, with a COP of >4.0, which means 75% can be exported and generate income.


    Interesting. How are the towel rails controlled - is that heating circuit on a timer? Also, what temp do they run at?


    Yes, on a separate timer (multiple zone programmer). Flow temperature in the circuit will be a maximum 40 degC as the heat source is ASHP.
  7.  
    Posted By: jamesingrami think one of the biggest problem 'green' energy efficient building has to deal with, is the occupants, over the last 30 years...

    Agreed. I can't be the only one who remembers ice forming on the inside of windows?
    Not something to be recommended, but it goes to show how much things have changed.

    Posted By: jamesingramTime for more hairy shirt purchasing I believe

    I'd rather opt for fibre pile than hair. :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2012 edited
     
    30 years ago was 1982, time of Exocet guided missiles, Golf GTis and the Space Shuttle was in service, and we had ice on our windows.
    We are so dreadfully behind.
    •  
      CommentAuthorbetterroof
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2012
     
    I'll swap icy windows for a space shuttle any day of the week!
  8.  
    Posted By: GaryBYes, on a separate timer (multiple zone programmer). Flow temperature in the circuit will be a maximum 40 degC as the heat source is ASHP.


    Is this to dry towels or provide heat for the room - doesn't sound a lot. Any news on effecitveness or is this just planned?
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2012
     
    Simon

    Underfloor heating is provided in winter - the towel rails are only to dry and warm the towels.
  9.  
    What's the consensus on the correct output per sq. metre for electric UFH for short term comfort heating?

    I would expect that our shower/bathrooms will have an air temp. of 19-20C. The downstairs bathroom will have wet UFH but I don't expect that to be in operation for more than 4 months a year so I am proposing to also install electric UFH in both rooms to be switched on when required when someone is taking a shower. Both will be in a thin screed just below ceramic tiles.

    I don't think I will bother with heated towel rails as both rooms will have HRV extract so I would expect that towels will try well without them.

    What would anyone suggest?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconWhat would anyone suggest?
    Work if out from the SHC of the tiles/screed, then find out the maximum temperature that the heater gets to, that will give you both the maximum temperature achievable and the response time.
  10.  
    Posted By: jamesingram hairy shirt


    :bigsmile:
    I disagree. If green building is to become mainstream, it must come without hair shirts. The general public will not pay for a green building where you have to wear a hairy shirt in the shower.

    Fortunately my well insulated, well ventilated, well lit , ufh heated bathroom is much more comfortable for much less energy than its draughty uninsulated predecessor of 30 years ago!
  11.  
    Think my floor has 100ish watts of htg in about 4m2 of floor, concentrated in the middle, none under the bath!

    Takes about an hour to heat up.
  12.  
    Posted By: Chris P Bacon
    I don't think I will bother with heated towel rails as both rooms will have HRV extract so I would expect that towels will try well without them. What would anyone suggest?


    Seconded - can anyone speak from experience? Wondering if towelrails are necessary.
   
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