Housing - Renovation: Insulation

1 to 29 of 29

- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeOct 30th 2016
Hi all,
Is there a chart or something similar to use for checking Insulation, where it's for and such like? I want to insulate the exterior the floors and the loft space in my house and don't know what is best where if that makes sense.
- CommentAuthorPeter_in_Hungary
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016
I don't know of a chart but -
Insulation varies with construction of the building but for a standard sort of house however IMO

Exterior - EPS EWI with EPS bead cavity fill if relevant (i.e. if you have unfilled cavities)

Loft space - Glass wool, as thick as you want up to 400mm

Floor - depends upon your floor construction. Solid floor - high density EPS with new floor over but this raises floor level (but cheap and quick), dig out old solid floor and replace as above (expensive and messy), for wooded floors fill between joists (glass wool, vcl supporting net etc. read all about it on various threads here) or remove wooden floor and replace with insulated solid floor. Other options available but floors are probably the most difficult to insulate unless you can go for the first option above.

With any insulation works attention to detail is v. important and if you are getting trades people to do it then you will need to watch then like a hawk to ensure detail is attended too.
- CommentAuthorringi
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016
Floor insulation gives a poor payback unless you are doing work on the floor anyway. However stopping drafts from floors give a good payback.

But if you have UFH, you need VERY good floor insulation, otherwise you put most of your heat into the ground.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016 edited
Michael
Is it information on application. If so, then it is really down to the manufactures specifications.
There are some fundamentals that are common, i.e. 'wools' insulate, but allow air to pass though them relatively easy, sheet insulation can insulate just as well, but hinder the passage of air.
The problems start when the condensation is taken into account, 'wool' types can hold onto water for longer than sheets types, though this is not always true.
Different insulations are also affected differently by moisture, some rot, some don't.

Sound transmission is another area that is affected by insulation, blown cellulose is one of the best in practice.

Then, to cap it all is the vapour control layer and wind/weather tightness layer.
Some insulation types need a physical break between components i.e. roof insulation, others don't i.e. loft insulation.
- CommentAuthorDarylP
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016
@Michael1, click on the Kingspan Insulation website, and look for Applications.
It is quite concise....
Good luck
- CommentAuthorRedDoor
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016
This link gives an overview. It also introduces the added variable of choosing your insulation by the amount of energy required to make it.
http://www.superhomes.org.uk/resources/whats-best-insulation-material/
- CommentAuthorringi
- CommentTimeOct 31st 2016
Posted By: SteamyTeaThere are some fundamentals that are common, i.e. 'wools' insulate, but allow air to pass though them relatively easy, sheet insulation can insulate just as well,

Sheet insulation is often installed with gaps, so making it close to worthless, 'wools' insulate is easy to push in without having to cut it 100% to the correct size, so tends to get installed better.
- CommentAuthorcjard
- CommentTimeNov 2nd 2016
Michael, you might be better posting up pics of where you want to insulate and aspiring for opinions on what to use, with reference to what your primary goal is (saving pain to your wallet, saving the earth, using only organic solutions, low chemical emissions etc etc) in terms of the insulation itself
- CommentAuthorcjard
- CommentTimeNov 2nd 2016
T(there are so many variables, this stuff doesn't fit on a chart)
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeNov 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: ringiSheet insulation is often installed with gaps, so making it close to worthless, 'wools' insulate is easy to push in without having to cut it 100% to the correct size, so tends to get installed better.
'Neither of the above', in my book. True about sheet insulation - but do you really experience that about wools getting installed better?

The prime advice with wools is to not 'stuff' but to cut accurately to fit so it lies flat, uncompressed. I agree with that but it's impossible to cut/fit well enough around obstructions, even if just about feasible between truly parallel timbers at equal spacing. For that reason I see wools as the lowest of the low, gaps everywhere in practice.

Sheet insulation - on the face of it even more difficult to cut/fit well. Therefore be prepared to foam most or all of the joints! Even a fag-paper width 'tight' joint is a convection channel - tiny maybe, but multiplied all over the insulation surface, adds up. A wider joint gap is a serious loser. At least, start early with a design strategy that minimises opportunity for gaps - e.g. as Andy describes in http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14664&page=1.

What gets over the gaps problem is either blown-in or foamed-in-place insulations.

Blown-in cellulose fibre (Warmcel) or glass wool has to be in a closed volume e.g. studwork, or underlined raftering, not lying loose e.g. between/over ceiling joists. It swirls around to find and fill every tiny space, and remains under slight compression forever. Thus convection air gaps are eliminated.

And as a bonus the whole body of it (cellulose fibre anyway - not sure about glass wool) is fairly airtight, so when coupled with OSB as one of the facings, the overall sandwich is reliably and long-term robustly airtight, not a fragile tricky long-term unknown membrane or tape in sight. Also well 'breatheable', and hygroscopic too! To me, the OSB plus Warmcel combo is The Answer - solving the insulation-gap problem, the airtight membrane need, 'breathability' and hygroscopicity, all in one economical, foolproof high performance package.

Foamed-in-place can only mean Icynene, for multiple reasons, def not traditional poluyrethane foam. Tho so different from blown-in Warmcel, it shares many of its characteristics. Tho it doesn't need that closed space, it teams up with OSB for all the above good reasons, except the benefit of hygroscopicity.
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 4th 2016
Hi all,
Sorry for not replying earlier, packing ready for the move. Cost although is always an issue I am more than willing to spend it to save it. The blown in for the loft sounds good and as I will be putting rooms up there at some point does the blown in eliminate the need to insulate hot and cold water pipes if they are in the blown in?
Is the blown in suitable for exterior walls, these are stone rendered, I want to clad in timber so would need to frame therefore blow in from the top maybe?
The floors are all tiled or stone and I don't mind losing an inch or two off the height.
Regards
Michael.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
Posted By: Michael1does the blown in eliminate the need to insulate hot and cold water pipes if they are in the blown in?

Should do as long as there's an inch or two of coverage over the pipes.

Is the blown in suitable for exterior walls, these are stone rendered, I want to clad in timber so would need to frame therefore blow in from the top maybe?

It should be. In the case of cellulose, they usually inject from the side rather than from the edges so the material spreads to fill the entire volume. I would expect it's the same for EPS beads or anything else but I don't know.
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
My thoughts are 100mm battens screwed to the wall then covered with a fine net of some sort to hold the insulation and cover with tongue and grooved boards, is 100mm enough and do I need a vapour barrier or would the walls breathe with just the blown in and cladding. Is the blown in suitable or is there another product available?
- CommentAuthortony
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
Quilt, batts or sheet insulation are possibilities.
- CommentAuthorPeter_in_Hungary
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
Posted By: Michael1My thoughts are 100mm battens screwed to the wall then covered with a fine net of some sort to hold the insulation and cover with tongue and grooved boards,

IMO for the external walls you would be better off with EWI (external wall insulation) It is better for the fabric of the house as the whole structure is kept warm.
For the loft - when will you do the rooms in the loft? if it is some years away it may be better to put normal glass wool (about 300mm thick would be good) and properly insulate the rooms in the loft when they are built.
EWI can be done DIY or part DIY (get tradespeople to put the final top coat render or the outer adhesive and top coat render depending on your skill, ambition, available time, cash etc. Glass wool is easy to DIY and I would guarantee you would do a better job (attention to detail in places you can't see) than tradespeople working to a quote.
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
Peter,
The rooms upstairs will be done within two years but am happy to do the insulation in the loft to a high standard whilst waiting just in case it gets put back. I am more than willing to raise the height of the joists to put thicker insulation in. As for EWI I do want to timber clad so will again go for the best I can get but on a DIY level, is there any reason for not doing 100mm battens and blown in or is there something better.
- CommentAuthorPeter_in_Hungary
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
From your other thread you have a stone built house in the middle of France. My stone built houses are a stone wall with rubble infill (stone /rubble/stone) 50cm thick or more. I have 2 such buildings and you will be surprised at how mush wind blows through the walls. Depending upon the stone fixing things to the wall can be a real game.

I put EWI on my building with very good results. You can choose your thickness (the link mentioned on the other thread - http://www.vesma.com/tutorial/uvalue01/uvalue01.htm - will instantly give you the results of increasing the insulation thickness) The additional cost of extra thickness is just the additional EPS + a bit for the mechanical fixings, adhesive and render and work remain the same. I put 100m of EWI on and this improved the walls from U of 1.6 to 0.3. If I had put 200mm on then this would have given a U value of 0.17. (100mm because thicker would mean altering the gutters and eaves and it is rented accommodation) It would be better for the building to EWI.

If you put the insulation on the inside then there are always problems with condensation behind the insulation, the need for good VCLs and cold walls don't help buildings. Read threads here about IWI. A couple of people with stone buildings have built a timber frame with insulation inside the stone structure and ventilated the gap between the timber frame and stone, (a house inside the barn ) EWI avoids all these issues. You can still put up your timber cladding but this would go up on tile battens. What ever you do on the inside you will need to put a parge coat on the walls to stop the gale.

Another point of EWI vs IWI. If you are living in the house permanently then IMO EWI gives a much more stable temperature (and cooler in the summer) but takes longer to heat up. IWI heats up quicker but the temperatures fluctuate. EWIed walls will retain the heat over night whereas with IWI there are only the internal walls to stabilise the temperature. In my book it is EWI for permanent living and IWI for weekend houses.

You don't need to raise the hight of the joists to put in thicker insulation unless you want to use the loft for storage and alike, just fill to the top of joists and then lay insulation on top. It would probably be worth putting heavy paper on top of the loft insulation as I suspect you have a well ventilated loft (= a gale blowing through unless you have roofing felt) and the paper will stop heat loss through wind wash.)
- CommentAuthorgyrogear
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
FWIW, neat vid here for pinestraw insulation from Les Landes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2cmhK8uex4

Maybe give him a ring and ask what the R value is !

gg
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
Peter, I am going to convert the loft space into living area, but until then I will put as much insulation in as I can. It might be a couple of years yet before I get to the upstairs and once I do it the insulation may help to keep noise down. So is my thoughts on battens and blown in for the EWI feasible? I have seen somewhere guttering that is extra wide to compensate for the thickness of the cladding and insulation.
- CommentAuthorPeter_in_Hungary
- CommentTimeNov 5th 2016
EWI is external wall insulation.
The almost universal EWI is EPS (expanded polystyrene) sheets that are 1m x 500mm and to a thickness of your choice, glued to the wall (with mechanical fixings as well) covered with a layer of adhesive (for mechanical strength) and a thin film acrylic render for weather proofing and to make it pretty. Its the easiest system to use and is suitable for solid stone walls. IMO there would be no point in battening out the wall and using blown insulation which would then need some sort of render or sheeting to make it weather proof.

The loft space insulation has nothing to do with the EWI (other than they should be thermally connected).

Roof insulation can be blown insulation between the rafters but needs to be self supporting or blown in to any depth between and over the joists. But this is not a DIY job. If you are thinking to have blown insulation between the rafters then you will need a good breathable roof membrane under the tiles first. If you do the insulation on the floor of the loft then the breather membrane can wait until you build the roof in (if you haven't already got one.

If you want to DIY the roof insulation then IMO it is glass wool or equivalent between and over the joists. If you use roll out insulation then it will be fairly easy to remove and reuse when you build in the roof. If you use pour in or blown in then this will be a pain to remove and reuse come the loft build.

When I built in the loft of one of the rental houses I used glass wool on the sloping part of the ceiling by battening out the rafters to the required depth then put in the glass wool which was held in place with bailer twine stapled to the battens until the plasterboard went up. The dwarf walls at the side were also insulated with glass wool (as was the remanent of the loft). All DIY
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 6th 2016
Peter,
At the moment there isn't any insulation in the house, so that's my reason for raising the joists. I intend to run the services in the insulation ready for the conversion. Also I want to insulate the concrete/tiled floors in the downstairs so was thinking 50mm sheets of insulation with a wooden floor laid directly on top, should I batten the floor first or could I lay the flooring directly on the insulation?
- CommentAuthorGotanewlife
- CommentTimeNov 6th 2016 edited
Posted By: Michael150mm sheets of insulation with a wooden floor laid directly on top, should I batten the floor first or could I lay the flooring directly on the insulation?
There are at least 3 current threads covering this issue. In essence views vary from one member (IIRC P-i-H above) who has put down high compression XPS with wooden flooring directly over with no problems to others who would want you to fit battens and then DIY laminate 2x9mm ply over the top! (but they don't appear to have worked with heavy duty XPS before). Given you have a solid floor under and given you use 300MPa XPS then if you use uni-click laminate or glue T&G over a foam underlay you don't need anything else.....IMO of course.
- CommentAuthorgyrogear
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016 edited
Posted By: Michael1should I batten the floor first or could I lay the flooring directly on the insulation?

I battened to 60mm XPS then nailed salvaged planks to the battens, to give a "17th Century effect". If I were doing it again, I probably would not batten and would simply use a thickish "pad" of double-backed carpet adhesive at each plank-end.

In the garage I laid 9mm T&G OSB directly onto 30mm XPS, it makes quite a difference; I left 1 cm around the walls and used XPS shims every so often, to hold it all. After I learned that the T&G should not be fully butted up, but that is a tough one to apply !

(garage walls are lined with 40mm XPS, with lime/muck render over).

gg
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
What is XPS?
- CommentAuthorDarylP
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
eXtruded PolyStyrene = strong insulant, low water absorbtion, readily available in Bricodepot!
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
Does using XPS mean not using membrame and just going straight onto tiled floor? And then underlay followed by either laminated or hardwood flooring?
- CommentAuthorbxman
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
Not sure how I found these 2 videos apologies if they have already been referred to

but I found them very instructive
lessons that apply to all forms of insulation to my mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpkXxHRp8U0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXr5E3gb0P0
- CommentAuthorMichael1
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
Does using XPS mean not using membrame and just going straight onto tiled floor? And then underlay followed by either laminated or hardwood flooring?
- CommentAuthorGotanewlife
- CommentTimeNov 7th 2016
Yes XPS is closed cell and will not absorb water. Most underlays have a vapour barrier on one side as well.

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