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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorkristof
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2009
     
    I just want to share my experience using Sempatap. Before I start I need to point out that neither my partner or me had any experience in hanging wallpaper.
    We have a 1936, solid wall, 3 up, 3 down house with the pebble dash that goes with it. It is an end of terrace.
    One room, where the kids sleep, is always very cold and we started to have problems of mould behind some furniture. The front door below is also recessed by a metre so the floor tends to be cold. After trying to deal with by it washing it away with bleach, we decided to use Sempatap. I give energy advice to people and suggest using it, so this was also a good test to see how it works.
    I have to admit that just before starting, we got cold feet so I called the supplier (Mould Growth Consultants (MGC)) in Surrey) to ask if they know of somebody professional who would be able to do it for us. The only contact details they were able to give me was for somebody in North London (I live about 2 miles from Mould Growth Consultants). I tried to get a quote but never got a call back, so my partner and I decided to give it a go.
    First, after lifting the carpet, I pulled up the floor boards and fitted insulation. I also insulated the heating pipes running under the floor boards.
    And then came the wall paper. I have to say that I was a bit disappointed by the instructions. One of these documents had SEMPATAP THERMAL in capital letters all over the document (almost every 3rd word) which makes it hard to read. Reminds you of Microsoft. (Message to the supplier: I know it is SEMPATAP THERMAL and I don’t care if there is a copy right on the name etc, I bought it from you, the only thing I want to do is hang it on my walls!!! And by the way, the Dutch version of the instructions is full of spelling mistakes).

    The instructions say that you have to return a short section on the adjoining wall to prevent thermal bridging. With hind sight, we shouldn’t have done that. As this was our very first sheet we ever hung, we ended up with sort of a dent about half way which we couldn’t correct. I have to say that the other sheets went up in a breeze, except maintaining a 1mm – 2mm gap between the sheets, but that didn’t bother us. A note: the instructions say that you have to unroll half a metre a time. But the 2 guys on the pictures seem to have unrolled the whole sheet in one go. These guys also seem to work from the floor up. We unrolled in one go and worked from the top down as unrolling half a metre a go didn’t work for us.

    The other thing is that you definitely need personal protection: the fibre glass ‘paper’ is not completely fixed and both my partner and I were complaining from itchy skin and covered with ‘splinters’ (silly me, wearing shorts...). Lots of disposable latex gloves come very handy, besides a good (long) pair of scissors and a good cutter knife.
    Because of the dent, we decided to ask a professional painter decorator to hang paper wall paper on top of it to give it a smooth finish. There are no specific instructions on wall paper to use so he used the paper he is familiar with.
    And then we entered in a stressful period: the wallpaper just ‘blistered’ after painting it. This sorted itself out once the glue was dry but the seams where 2 bands of wall paper meet were awful. The decorator had to put 2 extra layers cross-layered of normal wall paper on top to try to hide these seams. This off course cost us more money and the result is still not perfect.
    Does it work: I would say yes. But it is difficult to say to what extent as I also fitted floor insulation. Would I do it again? Not sure, I probably would have to drylined one wall with Kingspan (35mm-60mm) and not bothered with the wall that has a window in it. It would have been cheaper and the finish would have been better.
    Would I recommend it: in certain cases yes, but maybe try to get a professional to fit it. Or don’t try to return a short section on the adjoining wall. It will be easier to find a builder to dryline (or do it yourself!).
    I have to say that I’m a bit disappointed. Radmate radiator panels come with a DVD that explains in detail how to fit the panels. MGC could easily have done the same or posted it on the web. They could have a discussion forum managed by MGC. MGC could also train professionals how to fit. It is a bit worrying to live very close to MGC and the only professional available living the other side of London. I’m sure there are a lot of (unemployed) decorators who would be interested in a free course by MGC. These could then suggest it to customers and fit it while they decorate the room anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2009 edited
     
    Declaration - we sell Interior wall insulation (paint additive). I also produced an MSc thesis on the subject in 2004.

    Sorry to have to raise this after you have it on the wall...
    BUT
    What is the fire rating?
    What fumes would be produced in the case of a fire?

    As a customer could you please ask the supplier and report back to the forum?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit: Some foam products may produce VERY toxic fumes when burning (I can not comment on any specific product).
    The US Department of Labor has strict occupational health and safety rules when using urethane/poyurethane/isocyanates, etc regarding this.
    The indications are that all of these materials contain isocyanates (cyanide compounds) and may off-gas unprocessed chemicals in normal use. IN a fire the consequences are very significant.

    - GREEN BUILDING - The first objective must be to protect the environment and ourselves from toxicity (CO2 being just one cause of harm)
    • CommentAuthorkristof
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2009
     
    It is possible Sempatap is toxic when it burns. But the issue of toxic fumes is only a theoretical one: by the time the flames would reach the Sempatap, we’re long gone. That is either by getting out (I hope) or by begin dead (I hope not).

    But to answer your question:
    The Loss Prevention Council, Fire Propagation B.S. 476 Part 6 – Fire Rating Class 1
    The Loss Prevention Council, Spread of Flame B.S. 476 Part 7 – Fire Rating Class 1
    SME Centre de Recherche du Bouchet – Fire Rating Class M1 (French rating).

    But according to me, the only really environmentally sound solution to the problem external insulation using green materials. And not paint I’m afraid.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2009 edited
     
    Regarding the fire risk - I discussed the issue with a servig fireman and he certainly did not think it was theoretical.

    There is also the issue of off-gassing - a known problem with polyurethane materials.

    In my view (having studies the toxicity issues of building materials at CAT, particularly related health problems), you should not be so dismissive; Although I do understand that you may need to defend something that is already on your wall.

    Why do you say "not paint"?
    • CommentAuthorkristof
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2009
     
    sorry to be annoying, but I think I have a reason to be dismissive. Not because it is something I need to defend otherwise I wouldn't have written this in the first place and after all I don't have any interest in Sempatap or alternative products. The wall paper is on the first floor in a room above the front door/ stairs. A front bedroom in a typical 3 up/ 3 down. You may well be right about the toxic fumes and your explanation sounds very credible. But for the matter of the record, you may want to add a reference of an independent study that proves toxic flames are released from Sempatap. I think it is only correct that we provide evidence when we claim ' a known problem'. But by the time the flames reach the Sempatap to cause toxic fumes, we'll be dead anyway, just by the position of the room where the Sempatap has been used. That is either by inhaling toxic fumes coming from other stuff burning (the Sempatap will only add a marginal amount), lack of oxygen or we would be toast by the flames. But we do have a whole range of smoke and fire alarms!
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2009
     
    OK,

    As a general warning to all - PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE A PRODUCT IS BEING LEGALY SOLD IN THE UK OR HAS A CERTIFICATE THEN IT IS "SAFE"

    As this is a GREEN building forum and, in my view isocyanates should have no future here due to their toxicity and a range of other, far lesss toxic, alternatives.

    The US department of Labor has stated that there are at least 1% unprocess chemicals in medium density polyurethane,urethane,isocyante products (the whole generci category). THey have issues several reports on the subject ranging for safe handling/cutting and fires (in factories).

    In the UK Norwich Union have issued a 'Hard Facts' occupational health advisory warning document.

    These types of reports are aimed at Factory environments where the Employer has a duty of care and so they get better protection than householders.

    Aside from this material type there is a much bigger problem: In the EU there are 30,000 identified chemical compounds in use that have not been tested. What is far more insiduous than fire risk is the constant, low level, off gassing of toxic fumes into the home environment...

    BRE published a study on Indoor Air Quality(IAQ) in 1998 in newly constructed dwellings and found 254 VOC's emitted from building materials. VOC's are Volatile Organic Compounds.
    Large numbers of VOC's are carcogenic.

    The British Medical Journal has published a study of the affect on children on painting homes and found a fourfold increase in out patient admissions presenting symptoms of Asthma's when water based paints were used. This rose to eight fold when solvents were used.

    Can you imagine what we are going to find when tests progress on toes 30,000 chemicals?
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2009
     
    Alarming stuff...seems like a good case for widespread MHRV as everyone is being encouraged to seal up their houses.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2009
     
    Caliwag - There is a lot more scarry stuff - Thats why we sell HRV kit - for the simple fact that it is almost impossible to shut out all of these toxic sources from our homes.

    It is difficult to know where to draw the line. I am constanlty getting builders to seal homes. Unfortunately most of the sealants used are toxic! I encourage them to move to lower toxicity solutions (Such as SOudal isocyante free foam), but there is a significant cost!

    Until the gov has the guts to test all building products then it will be left to the free market to decide (bankers)

    Whilst testing for air tightness we have had to leave buildings on more than one occasion due to nausea induced by solvents!:cry:
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2009
     
    As far as I'm aware Sempatap is based on a fire retardant Latex foam.
    Judging by the certification and by physical demonstration it self extinguishes well within the 60 seconds required in the BS?
    Sempatap was originally designed as an acoustic foam not a thermal insulant as is clearly evident in its K value and therefore not manufactured incorporating the constituents of the thermal insulation foams as alluded to by PaulT
  1.  
    Posted By: Saintoriginally designed as an acoustic foam not a thermal insulant


    That's why its not very good at insulating... why would anyone want to use this product... I don't get it.... :confused:

    J
    • CommentAuthorRos
    • CommentTimeFeb 16th 2009
     
    Recently contacted Energy Savings Trust for advice on external wall insulation. All they sent in the post were two leaflets about Sempatap!!
    • CommentAuthorPam
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2010
     
    And I note that the 1010 campaign has picked up on ESTs recommendation now! Big sigh.....

    does anyone have experience with spacetherm? And know anything about its toxicity? The suppliers are saying it is non toxic but it is made of the post product of coal fired power stations!
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2010
     
    The EST have been promoting sempatap for ages. It's very unfortunate because IMHO it's a pretty crappy solution and makes you wonder what commercial tie-up is involved. The EST generall do lots of really good work, and I don't know why they spoil it with this sempatap obsession. It has been discussed before on this board.

    Almost any other insulation you might pick would be better (except PaulT's paint, which I assume, in the absence of evidence is even more useless). Sematap has a poor U-value and is only 12mm thick. It may be sufficient to prevent condensation problems under some circumstances, but people really ought to be putting proper insulation up, which normally means PUR if insualting internally.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2010 edited
     
    Does anyone know the thermal conductivity [k-value] of sempatap please?

    Edit got it 0.047W/mK
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2010
     
    But 10mm is far too thin for products like that

    Every time we take it off ther are nasty patches of black mould behind it

    It also makes the wall finish way too easy to damage

    In Germany they use 200mm
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2010 edited
     
    Sempatap continues to be promoted by the EST because it is one of just two approved FLEXIBLE dry lining products. You'll notice the required thermal conductivity for this niche sector is remarkably low as in poor and coincidentally the same as Sempatap's. It is designed to prevent mould which it does by assisting in maintaining the internal skin temperature above the dew point. "Thermal" is a tag it has acquired relatively recently in its history albeit without any noticeable increase in thermal performance.

    Pam, Spacetherm is the rebranding of Aspen Aerogel's Space Loft insulation by the Proctor Group for sales in the UK. It is an aerogel based on silica and has nothing to do with by products of coal fired power stations!!
    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2010
     
    I've got to say, I was pretty well impressed and excited by the apparent remarkable abilities of Spacetherm Aspen Aerogel. In particular as I am * desperately * seeking to find an ultra thin, ultra reliable product to use on the formidably damp,cold, peeling walls in the small rooms of my old Welsh cottage. Regardless of the expense of nanotech Aerogel Which, I endeavour to say, I have not looked into yet,( though i have no doubt it would not be a very cheap option ).
    Nonetheless I thought that it might well be worth the extra outlay in the long run. Vastly reducing heating costs, reliability factor etc......... However, I have had a niggly, sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind for quite a while now, that this product might possibly be one of those " Too good to be true " inventions

    Y'know, the kind of thing with the " What's the catch " attached ! :shocked:


    So chance would have it, that, just today, I should come across the article, ( link below ), regards the possible hazards associated with this new type of technology,. Any comments ?


    http://business.scotsman.com/biotechnology/Health-fears-as-hitech-science.2772193.jp
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2010
     
    Storm, the nano prefix in the case of Aspen Aerogel's Space Loft insulation refers to the size of the voids NOT any particulate
    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2010
     
    Thank you, Saint, No vested interest by any chance ? I don't know, I must confess I am not particularly scientifically adroit, however, somehow, I am still not convinced. I would love to have confidence in the health safty
    factor of this product, as of many others... Yet , to date, there is little that I can think of, that man has
    created within his laboratory that has not impacted with disasterous result. Either upon the environment and thus indirectly, or directly, upon people's immune systems, nervous systems, etc. It seems to me, no matter, how refined the composition of the product, there HAS to be some form of particulate / off gassing, and, that in the long run, one simply cannot beat, * Natural * materials to act in harmony throughout all levels of the environmental and human system.

    Any independant, non vested, scientific studies ?
    I don't know about the production method of Spacetherm Aerogel, nor the exact structure of this material. Silica derived or otherwise. However, what I DO tend to be aware of , is that whenever I hear the words, " a technological breakthrough " or " " "scientifically advanced achievement " My knees start to tremble a bit, I start worrying about the fishes in the rivers, or the status of the air, or how many more people are going to be rushed into hospital with some mysterious, all pervasive illlness which they have contracted.... from somewhere.


    I'm kind of old fashioned, that way. Guess I just cannot get used to the idea of living in a polluted, unnatural environment.... silly me ! :neutral:

    I have extracted the words below from an article I found earlier today on the internet :

    " ....Another consideration is that silica aerogels tend to flake and release micro-particles into the air. I’m not sure if these would be more dangerous than the micro-particles produced by fiberglass, but it is a potential safety concern. Aerogel also has a strong dessication effect, absorbing moisture strongly enough to cause “burns” on human skin after prolonged contact..... "
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2010 edited
     
    Storm, ask me about any insulation you like. 25 years in the business I've seen nearly all the production processes, handled and probably eaten a bit of most of them. There's a lot of ignorant diatribe put out about aerogel as your last paragraph aptly demonstrates and certainly don't believe everything you read on the net excluding my stuff of course!. Check out the Aspen aerogel website under morphology www.aerogel.com. If your fear is of marketing material I think you'll see you're safe there
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2010
     
    I was at a conference with an EST technical person last week (HEAT10 in cambridge - excellent) so I questioned him about the sempatap thing. He rolled his eyes and said that the EST does not promote sempatap, and never has done. It did mention it once in a report some years back and ever since the people who sell it have been putting huge 'EST' signs and logos on their stands and literature and mentioning this report and generally letting people get the impression that it is 'EST recommended'.

    The EST have tried to stop them, but found that they aren't actually breaking any laws so not much can be done. They are thoroughly fed up with the sempatap people ('mould growth consultants').

    This does explain why an otherwise excellent organisation seemed to be doing so badly on this one point.
  2.  
    Wookey,

    That was not the impression I had got from a more local EST rep, and does not really explain this:

    Energy Saving Trust Recommended products
    Search for products here
    Dry lining insulation / Mould Growth Consultants Ltd
    Marmox UK (3)
    Mould Growth Consultants Ltd (1)
    Walltransform (1)
    Mould Growth Consultants Ltd Sempatap (Thermal)
    Dry lining insulation

    From EST web-site: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Energy-Saving-Trust-Recommended-products/Insulation/Dry-lining-insulation/(manufacturer)/18156

    I did a talk a couple of years ago funded by EST and I was asked to mention a certain product despite my concerns. Indeed the promoter of the event even arranged for MGC to send me a sample so that I couldn't not have one (yes I do mean the double negative) when I did the talk.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010
     
    Hmm. OK. Not sure what to make of that. This fellow (Simon Harris) hadn't been working there very long (joined this year IIRC), so I guess that limits his personal exposure to the actual history of it, and he's reporting what he's been told.

    That recommended wall insulation list doesn't include kingspan, celotex, knauf, NBT or ecotherm products, which just seems bonkers. One wonders if the way you get on the list is to pay them? That would be a very sad state of affairs.

    I guess we should all ask them awkward questions about it (preferably publically) whenever we get that chance. Next ecobuild is probably a useful opportunity.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2010
     
    Wookey,
    Originally this section of products on the EST website referred to the rather unique FLEXIBLE dry lining products and hence was populated only by Sempatap and Warm-a-wall. Both of which I guess are capable of being installed by a competent DIYer as they are applied and finished similarly to wallpaper. Neither product has a great thermal conductivity 0.05-0.06W/mK so at 10mm thickness contribute little to the thermal resistance but enough to raise the internal wall temperature to a point where condensation and hence mould can often be avoided.
    Marmox XPS tilebacker board has now got into this grouping and the reference to flexible has disappeared. Again though be aware that the thermal conductivity of XPS that has been sliced to much less than 20mm is significantly different from XPS when the boards are thicker than 20mm. This fact is often not reflected in the product data sheets.
    Many of the major insulation products that you mention appear in the external wall insulation section as part of a branded system
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