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Housing - Renovation: triple glazing resonance

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    • CommentAuthormelvis
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2009
     
    i am renovating a detatched house built in 1900. the front of the house sits just 15 mtrs from a fairly busy and noisy railway line, i am thinking of putting triple glazed windows at the front of house and double glazing to the rear. the front is north facing so solar gain is not an issue, but to minimise the sound i have been told that if the triple glazing is made up of varying thicknesses of glass this will help greatly with noise reduction as the glass would resonate diffrently . to me this sounds a plausible idea as the vibration from the train line i feel causes the noise. does anyone have any knowledge on this subject ?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009
     
    It's true, and if one of the glass layers is laminated glass you get even better results, and there's another improvement to be had it the two spaces are of different sizes.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009
     
    Biff is spot on - laminated glass will make a huge difference, as would bigger cavities.

    I have worked with noise consultants on several projects next to busy roads, with planning conditions to reduce ambient noise.

    Secondary glazing (two sets of doulbe glazed windows - one outward and one inward, filling the reveal fully) would be the most effective option.
    - You actualy get quadrouple glazing
    - Line the reveal with some insulation though to avoid thermal bridging
    - Two sets of low spec double glazing may be cost effective compared to a triple glazed unit, comparable total U value (or better) and definately less noise as the large centre cavity would reduce noise better.

    Most important though is NO Trickle vents and no holes in walls for extract fans. This means a Heat Recovery Ventilation system, most likely with a significnat summer boost capability (and air intakes on the far side of the home from the railway)
    - We have been involved with projects next to roadsides where the trickle vents have caused huge problems.

    Some planner do not permit trickle ventilation for this very reason

    Other actions that would help:

    Dry line the walls with dense board on a metal frame (insualte of course) - use dens plasterboard or Fermacell (latter expensive but very very good)

    Seal for air tightness - saves energy (HRV above) and reduces noise significantly - an air tight building is a lot quiter than a leaky one.
    -------------------------

    Look out for noise under a ventilated floor and/or vibration(?) - building up the floor may help (and insulate)
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009
     
    Paul and Biff are spot on

    I am acoustician and have worked on many a project similar to your circumstances.

    Some of the rules are, large air spaces between pains, and different thicknesses.

    Generally I used to speck 10 mm glass/12 - 20 mm space/6.4 laminated.

    This works fairly well for most situations.

    Going tripple will have less of an improvement than you might expect due to smaller air gaps between pains.

    If the road is really noisy I would suggest specing a window as above (10/12-20/6.4 lam) and then get a second window of a standard single or double spec. Put the 10/12/6.4 on the outside, then put the second window on the inside of the window ledge. Line the window reveals with acousticly absorbant foam.

    That will give you a much better speck.

    NO NO NO trickle vents on that facade, and make sure that the windows are installed to the highest standard of air tightness and general fit.

    All too oftern i would see uber windows installed so badly that they worked as well as a single glazed unit.

    Make sure that the window seals are correctly compressed when closed.

    Don't worry about the performance of the wall itself (assuming its a reasonably solid masonary construction) the windows will ALWAYS be the week point.

    If you are really worried about it, get an acoustician to come and do a PPG24 assessment, and then spec window performance in accordance with BS 8233.

    Timber
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009
     
    Yes, I prefer large spaces between pains, too.
  6.  
    Posted By: biffvernonYes, I prefer large spaces between pains, too.
    Sounds a bit kinky there Biff. Hopefully your panes won't give you any pain :)

    Paul in Montreal
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2009
     
    Windows in the walls of recording studios are made with the glass about 4-6" apart and non parallel, with the side of the openings acousticaly lagged.
    Frank
    • CommentAuthormelvis
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2009
     
    many many thanks to biffvernon,paul, timber, and chuckey what an exceptional bunch...i feel very rightly steered away from triple glazing and will take on board what you guys have said. and without a doubt save money in the process.excuse my ignorance but would you put the laminate on the noisy side or...? am now looking down the avenue of double glazed, laminate and 10mm glass, larger spacing..( would over 20mm gap benefit as chuckey mentioned ?) and look at an internal secondary system. i will let you know how i get on and possibly enlist the help of an acoustician to record the before and after effects. sorry biff did not know such people existed.
    • CommentAuthorJackyR
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2009
     
    Posted By: biffvernonYes, I prefer large spaces between pains, too.

    Call the midwife!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     
    No, he's talking about rare visits to the patiserie.

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