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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2009
     
    The common way to insert windows into walls over here (Spain), is to insert a "premarco" (a wooden or aluminium) frame into a brick wall, then install the window frame into this. The problem is that this premarco has to be attached to something solid, in my case an internal blockwork wall - but this means that I won't have one continuous insulation layer as the wall insulation (cellulose) won't connect directly with the window frame.
    How should a window frame be inserted so that it is inline with the insulation layer?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2009 edited
     
    Cavity closures are normally used and the look something like this...

    http://www.cavalok.com/imgs/closer100ins.jpg

    http://www.cavalok.com/imgs/ecocloseinstall.png

    The window is either screwed to the outer leaf or in the case of uPVC metal straps are used to fix it to the inner leaf. The latter are shown above. These are then plastered over.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2009
     
    Stephen, what is your wall cross-section?
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2009
     
    They are called " cavity closers" over here. They are a plastic sort of top hat section with the hat being filled with foam. The two tags are screwed to the inner/outer wall leafs and the window /door screwed into the centre. I hope this comes out :-> http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/02/p1792502_x.jpg
    Frank
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2009
     
    Thanks all. Marktime, 20cm natural stone, 20cm cellulose, 15cm termoarcilla.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     
    You may have to make a purpose built cavity sealer, not difficult and cheap to do. My belief is that the window should go on the outside skin.
      Window (converted).jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009 edited
     
    Window should go in the insulation zone, Passivhaus-style, ideally with some insulation mastering across the outside and if poss inside face of the frame. In other words, embed the frame edge incl inside and outside faces' perimeter as deeply as possible in insulation. Fix the window with bits of Batstrap screwed to the inner skin's reveal and lintol soffit and cantilevering outboard to screw to the frame edge, where buried in the insulation zone. In this case, best compromise prob to make the back face of the stone master the window frame, so your frame-to-stone mastic joint is on the reveal face, not extending outward from the frame perimeter. Trouble with marktimes's detail, the inside corner of the stone is in completely uninsulated contact with the interior.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009 edited
     
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1386&page=1#Item_24

    check out the attached sketched by #mike george in the last couple of posts int his discussion
    with discription a few above


    http://www.tonyshouse.info/plandetail.pdf

    better detailing here , perhap you could adapted these ideas to suit
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     
    To be honest, i don't see how the detailing is very different from the rough sketch above. The cold bridge afforded by the window framing is a detail to be addressed in the selection of the window and is part and parcel of the sill choice and detailing. A composite window frame with thermal break is the ideal solution.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: jamesingram

    http://www.tonyshouse.info/plandetail.pdf" >http://www.tonyshouse.info/plandetail.pdf

    better detailing here , perhap you could adapted these ideas to suit


    Hey! that's one of my drawings as well! [though credit to Tony for the fine tuning to suit full-fill]

    I also think the window is best placed in the insulation zone as its position relative to the vertical DPC eliminates the risk of water penetrating through the outer leaf and around [bypassing the window] into the insulation itself, which, if organic, will cause problems
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009
     
    Can't really make out much from the diagrams, other than that there is a thin cavity closure spanning the cavity...
    marktime the DIY approach might be a good option here as I'd have to import ready made versions. I guess they're typically made from wood if DIY?
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2009 edited
     
    Must be something wrong with the link. Try this one http://www.tonyshouse.info/plandetail.pdf

    Or my preferred variation [which also works with partial fill]
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2009
     
    Aha! Your variation looks like it will do the business in our case, as it lets us use natural stone on the corners. For my final novice questions :bigsmile: is the silicon bead on the interior or exterior of the house? And is it really the case that the closure is only secured to the structure on one side with just the silicon bead on the other side?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2009
     
    That's the same basic method I posted here..

    http://www.cavalok.com/imgs/ecocloseinstall.png

    Just fixed to the inside. Mastic on the outside.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2009
     
    What does your builder want to do with the premarco? You can DIY cavity closures and make a good job of them too. Can you give us some detail on your window frames?
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2009
     
    marktime, I haven't settled on window frames yet - the question of the premarco came up during discussions with the architect. The architect wanted to insert the premarco into only the interior wall and then effectively use brick work to close the cavity. The purpose of the premarco would be to accept the window frame.
    Now I have some diagrams to take back to them so that they understand how we can build a premarco that is a cavity closure and so doesn't form a thermal bridge.

    Thanks for your help chaps!
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2009
     
    Make sure that your archy understands that you are not employing a ventilated cavity, a technique where a facade of thin, waterproof cladding is suspended 50-100 mm off the insulated wall section and everything gets hung off the internal wall. As you can see from the details above, you will need to provide a waterproof barrier, (thickish black plastic sheeting if you DIY) all around your window: the purpose of the cavity closer is to ensure no water gets into your cavity and ruins your insulation. The assumption is that if water enters the cavity from the exterior it will flow down the inside of the exterior wall. So, for example, above the window the cavity closer needs to slope down to the exterior with weep holes provided so water can't accumulate.

    The cavity closer is an important element independant of your thermal bridging question but the two can be combined to provide a single solution.
    • CommentAuthorralphd
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: fostertomWindow should go in the insulation zone, Passivhaus-style, ideally with some insulation mastering across the outside and if poss inside face of the frame.


    I agree with Tom. After looking at the PassivHaus window installation details, I was quite impressed with how thermal bridging is minimized. In my own house I spent most of the effort avoiding thermal bridging in the wall, not in the windows.

    -Ralph
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: marktimei don't see how the detailing is very different from the rough sketch above. The cold bridge afforded by the window framing is a detail to be addressed in the selection of the window
    No, nothing to do with the frame - the uninsulated (or virtually uninsulated) bridge is round the back of the frame - the stone is only (looks like) 25mm away from inside air, comprising 15 plaster and say 10 of the 'board insulation'.
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