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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorjezza22
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2009
     
    Looking at heat banks led me to the tank-in-tank solution. Does anyone have any experience of a tank-in-tank solution?

    It struck me that with stratification being so important the tank-in-tank solution will not get the primary water as mixed up as a heat bank as it does not have the heat plate X circuit running through it.

    Does anyone know if the tank inside the outer tank is vented or unvented? Chelmer do them and I think they are un-vented and AVC do them but not sure if the inner tank is vented or not?

    Thanks
  1.  
    There are many suppliers who do a tank in tank version, this is in place of an internal coil (if not using the plate X) either a smallish copper coil in the smallish copper UK thermal stores (e.g. McDonald / Albion / Newark etc) or a largish corrugated stainless tube in the largish mild steel European thermal stores.
    The T in T is just an expansion of the latter as would be S/S as would contain the potable water. It is normal that this is un-vented i.e. at mains pressure particularly if the primary store side is sealed. It’s then just a UV cylinder inside another cylinder which could be sealed or unsealed.
    A ribbed cross section is important not just for extra heat transfer surface but also for additional buckling strength.
    There is a comment on a thread here which questions the strength of some of the internal welds within the T in T. Worth searching here for all info on thermal stores / buffer stores
    Size wise smallest would be about 600-700 lit then upwards. Remember that the DHW will be about 200 lit so the remaining volume is the buffer volume. As the T in T will be in the upper section the buffer volume will be that below it, so perhaps only 2-300 buffer volume at the smallest size.
    Cheers
    Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2009
     
    The Tank-in-Tank solution is better then an internal coil if you live in a very hard water area.

    An internal coil is better then a PHE as it doesn't require any pumps. However, if your accumulator tank is on sealed system it does require compliance with section G3 in part G of the Buildings regs. I would imagine the T-in-T solution probably should comply to G3 as well.

    Mike,

    Most larger mild steel stores (having one myself) from Europe normally have internal coils made from extruded/corrugated copper pipe and not S/S. It's easier to get a good seal around the entry.
    • CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2009
     
    There are regular references to the 'European mild steel thermal stores', which leaves me with the impression that stores are more plentiful and cheaper on the continent. Can anyone name some suppliers I could check out?
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2009 edited
     
    Tuna,

    Akvaterm is the easiest one to get hold off in UK, but there others if you are prepared to talk directly to the supplier. Stroma imports a tank from TiSun in Austria (very, very nice tank but quite expensive). I bought one directly from Sweden, 750l tank just over £1700 inc. shipping, ex. VAT.

    The UK ones are smaller and fairly expensive as they tend to be made from copper (steel is cheap!). As most systems (not to say all) on the continet are sealed there isn't really an issue with the steel rusting, but with the open vented systems used in UK I can see tha appeal of using copper for the tank. That said most modern CH installations are sealed anyway so using a mild steal accumulator isn't a problem.
  2.  
    Hi,
    Actually, I think you are thinking of the other variant I omitted.
    The Akvatherm (me) and Capito tanks use a wrapped up copper coil on a flange at the top. One advantage is that a lower flange can be used instead of solar for a DHW pre heat.
    The stainless corrugated coils come in at the very bottom do some tight loops at the lower party, then a wider spiral up to the upper part where they then do tight spirals again. These might hold 30 – 40 or in some cases 60 lit of water so, themselves provide some stored capacity.
    Typically, the stainless coils are found from
    TiSun
    Wagner
    Windhager
    Viessmann
    Kloben
    Solar Bayer
    Solar Focus
    Rotex (also do a PEX variant)
    Other suppliers such as Hoval or Boiler Nova and any of the ” PS” range of buffer tanks supplier by say Kotly etc etc with the F designation have a blinded flange this can be used for solar or pre heats of lower and DGHW if upper. Most of mild steel tanks are fabricated in Italy where an awful lot of traditional fabrication is still done.
    By the way, many of the T in T are actually mild steel enamelled sometimes called glass lined. You get this in the UK for UV cheaper UV cylinders in place of S/S

    Cheers
    Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2009
     
    I made a list of tanks/suppliers here: http://www.navitron.org.uk/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=SolarThermal.Tanks

    Some of those do tank-in-tank variants.

    There are quite a few that need adding to that list but Navitron put a password on wiki editing which I've forgotten.

    Thanks for above info Mike - very interesting.
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