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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010 edited
     
    I see a lot of lofts that have been insulated but not very carefully often leaving gaps and missing bits

    This causes a disproportional heat loss through the uninsulated area

    If the loft has 200mm of quilt and 5% of it was missing what would the difference between the heat lost compared to a properly done loft?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010
     
    Its a weighted average, so you need to know the u-value of the insulated as compared to the uninsulated and the temperature differences.
  1.  
    Posted By: tonyThis causes a disproportional heat loss through the uninsulated area

    or
    Posted By: SteamyTeaIts a weighted average
  2.  
    Disproportional or not disproportional that is the question...:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=4694&page=2#Item_1

    J
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010 edited
     
    James

    As it can be easily calculated it will be proportional to the differences, the U-values will not change, nor will the uninsulated percentage. The only differences will be in the temperatures and these can be assumed to be equal for both (unless there is some reason why not).


    Edit:
    Take a ceiling that is 10m by 10.5m with the U-Values of 1 and 2 and a temperature difference of 10C.

    the first 10m is insulated at U=1 and the 0.5m (the 5%) is at U=2

    Then:
    10(m)*10(m)*1(U)*10(C)=1000

    10(m)*0.5(m)*2(U)*10(C)=100

    Or

    10(m)*10(m)*1(U)*20(C)=2000

    10(m)*0.5(m)*2(U)*20(C)=200

    Conversely:

    10(m)*10(m)*0.1(U)*10(C)=100

    10(m)*0.5(m)*0.2(U)*10(C)=10

    Or

    10(m)*10(m)*0.1(U)*20(C)=200

    10(m)*0.5(m)*0.2(U)*20(C)=20

    Or was the question is the heat loss proportional to the percentage uninsulated?
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010
     
    Is it like this?
    Assume 100m2 house over two floors, loft area = 50m2 and no other thermal bridges.
    Fully insulated loft:
    50m2 @ U = 0.19, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 190W

    95% good:
    47.5m2 @ U = 0.19, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 180.5W

    5% missing:
    2.5m2 @ U = 3.76, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 188W

    Total loss through "dodgy" loft:
    368.5W

    I think 5% is a bit optimistic - ours had 10m2 missing from a 50m2 loft.
    So, we went from:
    40m2 with 100mm (badly fitted too!):
    Loss = 288W
    10m2 with nothing
    Loss = 752W

    Total loss = 1040W

    To:
    50m2 with 250mm
    Loss = 150W

    In short, the uninsulated bit dominates in both these cases

    Brian.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010
     
    Disproportionate then:bigsmile:
  3.  
    Disproportionate to area but proportionate to the area weighted U-value then :bigsmile:

    J
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 1st 2010
     
    disproportinate in the eyes of the person paying the energy bills.
    •  
      CommentAuthorbetterroof
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: brig001Is it like this?
    Assume 100m2 house over two floors, loft area = 50m2 and no other thermal bridges.
    Fully insulated loft:
    50m2 @ U = 0.19, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 190W

    95% good:
    47.5m2 @ U = 0.19, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 180.5W

    5% missing:
    2.5m2 @ U = 3.76, internal 20, external 0.
    Loss = 188W

    Total loss through "dodgy" loft:
    368.5W

    I think 5% is a bit optimistic - ours had 10m2 missing from a 50m2 loft.
    So, we went from:
    40m2 with 100mm (badly fitted too!):
    Loss = 288W
    10m2 with nothing
    Loss = 752W

    Total loss = 1040W

    To:
    50m2 with 250mm
    Loss = 150W

    In short, the uninsulated bit dominates in both these cases

    Brian.


    What time period is that loss over? is that in kwh?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2010
     
    Killa wot hours? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=5434&page=2#Item_30

    kWh

    the above heat losses are in Watts (W) multiply by time to get totals of energy lost .
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2010
     
    This may show it
  4.  
    Hi, ah ha one I could get opened! There are three variables the %coverage m2, the thickness of each (hence the R value) and the temp difference.

    Assuming a same temp difference then there is a simple relationship between the areas and the respective R values of the covered/uncovered area (high/low R). So for example for a given area if you have an area very highly insulated U=0.1 R=10) and an area very poorly insulated (U=10 R-1) then the affect is more pronounced than if the well insulated area were say 0.3 (R=3.33) and the poorly insulated area was say U=3 (R=0.33).
    Therefore, the greater the relative difference between insulated/un-insulated the more acute the affect is.
    Thus, depending on the actual levels of insulation the affect of the various area combinations 90/10%, 85/15% etc will alter. Not always easy to visualise these in ones head, so best to insulate as fully as possible and ignore the “a few bits missing doesn’t matter brigadeâ€Â

    Cheers

    Mike up North
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2010 edited
     
    I go along with that Mike, and it can support the argument for airtightness as well. No point insulating a loft if there is then a hole in it somewhere.

    Glad you can open it, for some reason it uploaded as a zip file this time, well second attempt it did.
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