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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorandybw
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011
     
    Hi All
    I would appreciate feedback on insulating a new build house extension using a stick build timber frame wall.
    Varied advise received to date as to insulation, inside, between or external to frame (or all 3).
    I would like to insulate externally but not sure of a good value for money board with basic insulation between studs and insulated plasterboard internally.
    Basic construction is
    Render on mesh
    25mm battens
    Breather membrane
    Insulated board (60mm K5 by Kingspan meets B Regs)
    OSB
    100mm studs with 50mm insulation
    32mm insulated plasterboard and skim

    I would prefer to reduce the insulation layers, so have thicker external and none internally.
    Obviously I will get SAPS to ensure compliance so the actual thickness will depend upon the make, I'm keen to learn what system and products work out at good value.
    many thanks
    Andy
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2011
     
    Ah, a question right up my street.

    What is your target external wall U-Value target?

    Why would you only install 50 mm of insulation between 100 mm deep studs? More insulation is always more, and a 50 mm void allows the possbility of air movement reducing performace.

    Why not go for

    Render on backed lathe
    25 mm treated battens with dpc between render and batten
    breather membrane
    50 - 100 mm rigid insulation board (to achieve desired U-Value (0.15 or better))
    100 mm studs with 100 mm foil faced insulation between
    OSB sheathing board taped and sealed at joints
    polythene vapour control and air tightness membrane
    25 mm battens forming service void with medium to high density mineral wool insulation
    plasterboard and skim

    The cladding battens should be fixed through insulation to stud with either metal or plastic screws and if possible support at the top and/or bottom on either the rafters or some additional battening.

    There are of course MANY ways to skin the cat. I persoanlly would go for some more breathable insulation materials between and outside the studs, but it would result in a thicker wall for a set U-Value.

    It is also worthwhile considering how to mitigate any thermal bridges between the different elements. This may help to dictate wall, roof and floor buildup.

    Timber
    • CommentAuthorandybw
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    Hi Timber
    Thanks for your response, I had seen your comments on previous quotes and looked forward to your input.
    Can you recommend a rigid board for the external layer please?

    I'll take your advise on the insulation between studs.
    Not sure if I'll bother with the internal VP, OSB and battens, the first fix can go between the studs or behind the insulated plasterboard and as the rooms are basically a guest house future alterations won't apply that much.

    Will see how the SAPS comes out to include internal insulation or not.

    Many thanks
  1.  
    With no structural board on the outside of the studs, you'll need the OSB to provide racking strength.

    Using insulated plasterboard makes it very difficult to achieve a good airtightness layer. It is difficult to seal the rear face of the plasterboard & the plasterboard is likely to be punctured in various places by electrics & other services.

    Better to follow Timber's suggestion, fill the studs with the insulation, put any further insulation on the outside keeping the studs warm & put a continuous air barrier on the inside which can be sealed before services & plasterboard are fitted.

    Taped OSB & seperate polyethylene vapour control layer is belt & braces from an airtightness point of view, but makes sense from a vapour control point of view if you have a non-breathable insulation board outside the studs.

    The battens give the electrician/plumber somewhere to route cables/pipes without puncturing the air barrier. As an alternative you could use 2 layers of plasterboard with the services buried in the 1st layer.

    David
    • CommentAuthorandybw
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    Hi David
    Thanks for your input, I now realise I hadn't paid close enough attention to Timbers spec.
    Just noticed that in effect the OSB is moved from outside to inside and makes no great extra cost .
    So I'll follow your joint advice on that with a VP for good measure.
    The SE will ensure it stands up etc.

    As we're likely to have little services on these walls will dispense with the battens and use p/b strips or fix p/b direct to OSB - alas this will puncture the VP (as would fixing the battens)

    Would appreciate a tip on type of rigid insulation board other than Heraklith/Kingspan please
    many thanks
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    Indeed the OSB goes on the inside. Helps with vapour control and air tightness.

    If yoy are having minimal services, then you could use 15 mm OSB cut into strips to act as strapping to run the services between, only on the walls with services. Don't worry about the screw fixings puncturing the vcl. It will have very little impact on its performance.

    For the insulation board on the outside, kingspan/celotex, eps, wood fibre, whatever you want really. EPS is more breathable than foil faced boards.
  2.  
    Hi Andy, Here's how we usually skin the cat, its similar to Timbers detail but the EPS and insulation are on the outside and no membranes are used.
    • CommentAuthormark_s
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011
     
    Viking,

    What do you use to cut the grooves for the battens in the EPS?

    Do you just use a router - I'd have thought that would make a heck of a mess cutting eps?

    cheers

    Mark
  3.  
    Posted By: mark_sViking, What do you use to cut the grooves for the battens in the EPS?Mark
    We use a hot knife, its like cutting butter!
    • CommentAuthorandybw
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011
     
    Hi all
    Thanks very much for your input, have gone for an amalgam of the advise
    Will see what comes out of the builders quotes
    ideally will be able to afford Gutex and lime render but I doubt it!
    All the best
    Andy
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2011
     
    I've carved a lot of EPS (not for house insulation, but to make lost foam composite parts). One tool I've found invaluable is a cheap instant soldering gun (the ones that have a loop of wire as a bit, connected to two insulated bars, with a trigger to turn the power on). These are easy to modify to make hot knife tools for cutting shapes out, by swapping the soldering bit for a suitably shaped bit of resistance wire. The wire can be shaped to cut any profile you like, so bending a loop to cut a rectangular slot of a set depth would be easy. The resistance wire I use is stainless steel locking wire, normally used for locking aircraft bolts, but I know others have used wire salvaged from old electric fire elements with some success.
  4.  
    Thanks for the tip JS, have you a photo of that soldering gun with the attachment?
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2011
     
    Here's a link to a YouTube video that shows one in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G75_XXbdcnU

    I found that a little bit of trial and error was needed to get the right size wire. Too big in diameter and it doesn't heat up enough, too small and it's not stiff enough. A lot depends on the soldering gun, the more powerful it is the thicker the wire it will work with.

    Wire length is also important. If you find the loop of wire runs too hot, then make it a bit longer. Its resistance will increase and it'll draw less current, making it run a bit cooler.

    For what you want to do I'd suggest trying something like 16g piano wire to start with. That should be stiff enough and resilient to getting the odd knock on site, yet still do the job OK. You may need to go to thicker wire, it depends very much on the exact size of the loop you make.

    Using wire that's too thick can risk overloading the transformer in the gun, but my experience is that most guns will take pretty thick (14g or so) wire with ease. Start off with a cheapo gun, like one of these, maybe: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100W-SOLDERING-IRON-GUN-KIT-SOLDER-AND-FLUX-167-/140535914831?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item20b897e14f and see if it works for you. If it does, then probably one of the better makes of professional quality soldering guns is Weller. They do a 100 watt one for around £45 that is pretty tough.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2011
     
    Google for "hot knife eps" throws up quite a lot. Seems they are a US tool but they are being imported over here. Care I think is needed to get one with enough grunt for continuous use. A separate PSU is probably the way to go.

    If you do find a good supplier give it a shout out.

    Cheers
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2011 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: borpin</cite> A separate PSU is probably the way to go.</blockquote>

    For cutting grooves, general EPS carving etc a 100W soldering gun has more than enough power, so is ideal and doesn't need any transformer or whatever as it has one built in to the handle.

    For cutting sheet to size with straight cuts I use a home made hot wire that looks like a bow, just a length of nichrome (scrounged from an old electric heating element) stretched tight across the mouth of a hoop. I normally use wooden guide rails to keep the wire straight during the cut. I power this of an ordinary car battery charger - it only draws about 4 amps or so. This gives a clean edge but is much, much slower than the standard way of cutting the stuff on site with a saw.
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