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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorWeeBeastie
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    My planned bathroom renovation will involve removing the false ceiling to create enough height for a small pulley to hang laundry on. I'd like to use clay plaster on the walls and ceiling to buffer moisture.

    Currently I dry my washing on a rack next to an open window if it's warm enough, or in a closed room with a dehumidifier if it's cold. It would be nice to hang it up high out of the way though.

    Should I be putting a MHRV unit in the bathroom? It would have to be a compact single room stand-alone one, as my flat is 'in the roof' with no attic space for ducting a centralised one. If yes, can anyone recommended a unit that ducts out a flat roof (wall not an option)?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    You should be hanging the washing outside!
    • CommentAuthorWeeBeastie
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    Alas no outdoor space. I'm in a tenement flat which the Council used to own, and sold off the shared garden for car parking!

    I am planning a roof access skylight though, so I can put a washing rack on my flat roof :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    If you do fit an MVHR unit in the bathroom, you don't have to worry about buffering moisture, which is an odd concept anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    We found that a standalone MHRV unit fitted in a bathroom significantly lowered room temp (because not all the heat in the outgoing air is transferred to the incoming) and created significant air movement aka draught - all disproportionately uncomfortable for wet naked bodies. The bathroom is NOT the place to put these - the passage immediately outside maybe.
    • CommentAuthorWeeBeastie
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    I've read they can be noisy too?
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2015
     
    We had a hr25h single unit heatexchanger - we could just hear it 5m away on trickle, and boost was LOUD. Our house is very quiet mind. Bear in mind these are designed to be always on - that's overnight too. These units keep cropping up, here's a link to the last discussion:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8838&page=1#Item_0
    • CommentAuthorandyman99
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    We dried washing in a utility room for a while - when the weather was not good enough to dry outside. It did dry the washing but long term caused mould problems and we stopped it. Best thing we did was to get a separate spin drier, it will remove a lot more water than most washing machines Caveat, it is time consuming in that you need to divide washing into 3 or 4 loads and may be spin each one for 3-5 mins.

    I’m no expert, but why try to buffer humidity? Wouldn’t it be better to completely tile the bathroom, then the water vapour has to be visible and trapped on the tiles. Either ventilate by opening the window or use a de-humidifier?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    Buffering + MHRV running continuously on trickle sounds like a good idea to me. Anybody got any experience or arithmetic to say otherwise?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    What is your thinking behind buffering (storing water in plaster) with MVHR Ed?
    Just seems an odd thing to do to me. Not experience (other than a dry house and having lived in damp ones).
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015 edited
     
    Basically, being able to run the MHRV when it's efficient to do so, e.g., when the outside air is drier and/or warmer, when energy is available and so on. Avoiding having to run it, less efficiently, on boost to cope with peaks of water vapour production. Holding on to the latent heat until it's a good time to use some of that up drying the house out.

    In another thread a year or two ago I showed that allowing the fabric of the house to absorb a certain amount of water over a winter would release enough heat to make a small but not completely negligible contribution to the heating of a Passivhaus. Sort of like a small scale version of that Dutch “cat litter” [¹] heating system that somebody popped up on here to discuss even longer ago.

    [¹] http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=8946
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    Thought it might be.
    I weighed some washing before and after drying.
    A typical load of my washing held 1.9 kg of water
    Fancy running your numbers again on my washing. I usually take it out several hours after it has finished, so would normally be at ambient temperature.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    I've visited one Passivhaus with a 'drying room'. Whole house MVHR with an extract in a bathroom, the clothes hung in an oversized cupboard in the bathroom. They seemed happy with it.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    100 m² roughly-cubic 2 storey house might have 400 m² of indoor walls and ceilings. Don't know numbers for clay so assume equivalent of 10 mm of wood on those surfaces. The floors might be wood too but would probably be well-enough sealed to not to play in this game.

    Total mass of wood might be 400 m² * 0.01 m * 400 kg/m³ = 1600 kg.

    From the table here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html

    equilibrium moisture content, at sensible temperatures, 40% RH would be 7.7% and at 65% RH would be 12% so a change of 4.3% which would be 68.8 kg.

    Compare that with 1.9 kg from your washing (which could be less with a spin drier, I expect).

    Wood, even through the end grain, would be too slow to help for short peaks like this, I suspect. Clay might be a lot better - I don't know.

    Latent heat of condensation of water, at around room temperature, is about 2450 kJ/kg so the condensation of 68.8 kg of water (say starting from a house dried out as far as practical in the autumn and allowing the moisture content to build up over the winter) would release 168.56 MJ or 46.82 kWh, 0.4682 kWh/m² so a bit less than 1/30th of Passivhaus heating requirements.
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